C++Talk.NET C++ language newsgroups   Archives   FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  standard library ideas          C++Talk.NET Forum Index -> C++ language, library and standards View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message scottz Guest Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 7:50 pm    Post subject: standard library ideas Anyone know if the committee has committed itself to adding DateTime/TimeSpan types and XML classes to the 0x library? If the goal is to make additions that EVERYONE will use... surely these would score higher than many of other fine additions that are already planned. Also, just my $.02, it'll be easier for most of us to remember, require less typing, and save us time searching the list of #includes in source files to see if the one we want is already there (somewhere), if... the handy new unordered_x classes would live in the same headers we already know, e.g. <set> and <map>. I thought it a poor choice when I saw the plan to have 4 new long header names. Thanks for listening --- [ comp.std.c++ is moderated. To submit articles, try just posting with ] [ your news-reader. If that fails, use mailto:std-c++@ncar.ucar.edu ] [ --- Please see the FAQ before posting. --- ] [ FAQ: http://www.jamesd.demon.co.uk/csc/faq.html ] Back to top David Abrahams Guest Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 12:13 am    Post subject: Re: standard library ideas "scottz" <scottz1 (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> writes: Quote: Anyone know if the committee has committed itself to adding DateTime/TimeSpan types and XML classes to the 0x library? If the goal is to make additions that EVERYONE will use... surely these would score higher than many of other fine additions that are already planned. No. Nobody has brought us a proposal for either of these. Quote: Also, just my $.02, it'll be easier for most of us to remember, require less typing, and save us time searching the list of #includes in source files to see if the one we want is already there (somewhere), if... the handy new unordered_x classes would live in the same headers we already know, e.g. <set> and <map>. I thought it a poor choice when I saw the plan to have 4 new long header names. It's a trade-off. Some people don't want to pay the compilation-time costs of processing definitions they're not using. -- Dave Abrahams Boost Consulting www.boost-consulting.com --- [ comp.std.c++ is moderated. To submit articles, try just posting with ] [ your news-reader. If that fails, use mailto:std-c++@ncar.ucar.edu ] [ --- Please see the FAQ before posting. --- ] [ FAQ: http://www.jamesd.demon.co.uk/csc/faq.html ] Back to top Daniel Krügler Guest Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 3:51 pm    Post subject: Re: standard library ideas David Abrahams wrote: Quote: "scottz" <scottz1 (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> writes: Anyone know if the committee has committed itself to adding DateTime/TimeSpan types and XML classes to the 0x library? If the goal is to make additions that EVERYONE will use... surely these would score higher than many of other fine additions that are already planned. No. Nobody has brought us a proposal for either of these. Yesterday night I found Jeff Garlands's date-time proposal: http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2005/n1900.pdf I keep my fingers crossed for Jeff! Greetings, Daniel --- [ comp.std.c++ is moderated. To submit articles, try just posting with ] [ your news-reader. If that fails, use mailto:std-c++@ncar.ucar.edu ] [ --- Please see the FAQ before posting. --- ] [ FAQ: http://www.jamesd.demon.co.uk/csc/faq.html ] Back to top Alberto Ganesh Barbati Guest Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 3:54 pm    Post subject: Re: standard library ideas David Abrahams wrote: Quote: "scottz" <scottz1 (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> writes: Anyone know if the committee has committed itself to adding DateTime/TimeSpan types and XML classes to the 0x library? If the goal is to make additions that EVERYONE will use... surely these would score higher than many of other fine additions that are already planned. No. Nobody has brought us a proposal for either of these. Although there's no formal proposal, for DateTime/TimeSpan we have boost.date_time which may deserve one ;-) For XML, the committe has been explicitly mentioned it in the TR2 call for proposals: http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2005/n1810.html, so definetely there is interest in it. About this issue, I believe that the W3C did an enormous job with the DOM specifications... C++ programmers may not like DOM (personally I found it to have a vague java-ish flavour) but it's here to stay and gets the job done. In fact there are already plenty of implementations. So the question is: do we really need something different? Just my opinion, Ganesh --- [ comp.std.c++ is moderated. To submit articles, try just posting with ] [ your news-reader. If that fails, use mailto:std-c++@ncar.ucar.edu ] [ --- Please see the FAQ before posting. --- ] [ FAQ: http://www.jamesd.demon.co.uk/csc/faq.html ] Back to top Howard Hinnant Guest Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 3:54 pm    Post subject: Re: standard library ideas In article <uslumjz15.fsf (AT) boost-consulting (DOT) com>, [email]dave (AT) boost-consulting (DOT) com[/email] (David Abrahams) wrote: Quote: "scottz" <scottz1 (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> writes: Anyone know if the committee has committed itself to adding DateTime/TimeSpan types and XML classes to the 0x library? If the goal is to make additions that EVERYONE will use... surely these would score higher than many of other fine additions that are already planned. No. Nobody has brought us a proposal for either of these. Well there is: http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2005/n1900.pdf It was briefly reviewed in Mont Tremblant and received positive feedback. -Howard --- [ comp.std.c++ is moderated. To submit articles, try just posting with ] [ your news-reader. If that fails, use mailto:std-c++@ncar.ucar.edu ] [ --- Please see the FAQ before posting. --- ] [ FAQ: http://www.jamesd.demon.co.uk/csc/faq.html ] Back to top David Abrahams Guest Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 5:23 pm    Post subject: Re: standard library ideas [email]howard.hinnant (AT) gmail (DOT) com[/email] (Howard Hinnant) writes: Quote: In article <uslumjz15.fsf (AT) boost-consulting (DOT) com>, [email]dave (AT) boost-consulting (DOT) com[/email] (David Abrahams) wrote: "scottz" <scottz1 (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> writes: Anyone know if the committee has committed itself to adding DateTime/TimeSpan types and XML classes to the 0x library? If the goal is to make additions that EVERYONE will use... surely these would score higher than many of other fine additions that are already planned. No. Nobody has brought us a proposal for either of these. Well there is: http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2005/n1900.pdf It was briefly reviewed in Mont Tremblant and received positive feedback. Sorry, my Google search missed that one. -- Dave Abrahams Boost Consulting www.boost-consulting.com --- [ comp.std.c++ is moderated. To submit articles, try just posting with ] [ your news-reader. If that fails, use mailto:std-c++@ncar.ucar.edu ] [ --- Please see the FAQ before posting. --- ] [ FAQ: http://www.jamesd.demon.co.uk/csc/faq.html ] Back to top scottz Guest Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 9:43 pm    Post subject: Re: standard library ideas Yes, I realize it's a tradeoff the committee will weigh. I assume compiler vendors on the committee are naturally interested in compilation speed. But I think that while including some extra declarations I may not need costs a few milliseconds when compiling, the alternative costs in human-time are greater when programmers must learn them, explain them, search lists of #includes for their existence, and key the extra lines. Would anyone disagree that the total global seconds spent discussing those new headers (including this thread) will be orders of magnitude greater than the total global compile time of putting them in the map/set headers? Note that when 2 or more of these headers are needed in a given source file, compilation time would be reduced by consolidation. Though I don't have any statisics that say what percent of source files will use 2 or more of set/map/unordered_x. Thanks Quote: Also, just my $.02, it'll be easier for most of us to remember, require less typing, and save us time searching the list of #includes in source files to see if the one we want is already there (somewhere), if... the handy new unordered_x classes would live in the same headers we already know, e.g. <set> and <map>. I thought it a poor choice when I saw the plan to have 4 new long header names. It's a trade-off. Some people don't want to pay the compilation-time costs of processing definitions they're not using. -- Dave Abrahams Boost Consulting www.boost-consulting.com --- --- [ comp.std.c++ is moderated. To submit articles, try just posting with ] [ your news-reader. If that fails, use mailto:std-c++@ncar.ucar.edu ] [ --- Please see the FAQ before posting. --- ] [ FAQ: http://www.jamesd.demon.co.uk/csc/faq.html ] Back to top David Abrahams Guest Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 10:10 pm    Post subject: Re: standard library ideas "scottz" <scottz1 (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> writes: Quote: Yes, I realize it's a tradeoff the committee will weigh. I assume compiler vendors on the committee are naturally interested in compilation speed. But I think that while including some extra declarations I may not need costs a few milliseconds when compiling, the alternative costs in human-time are greater when programmers must learn them, explain them, search lists of #includes for their existence, and key the extra lines. At Boost we are beginning to find that the best organization is one header per name; nobody ever has trouble remembering what header contains boost::mpl::apply. It's in <boost/mpl/apply.hpp>. Quote: Would anyone disagree that the total global seconds spent discussing those new headers (including this thread) will be orders of magnitude greater than the total global compile time of putting them in the map/set headers? Not if I get out of the discussion immediately ;-) Ciao, -- Dave Abrahams Boost Consulting www.boost-consulting.com --- [ comp.std.c++ is moderated. To submit articles, try just posting with ] [ your news-reader. If that fails, use mailto:std-c++@ncar.ucar.edu ] [ --- Please see the FAQ before posting. --- ] [ FAQ: http://www.jamesd.demon.co.uk/csc/faq.html ] Back to top chris jefferson Guest Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 6:49 pm    Post subject: Re: standard library ideas scottz wrote: Quote: Yes, I realize it's a tradeoff the committee will weigh. I assume compiler vendors on the committee are naturally interested in compilation speed. But I think that while including some extra declarations I may not need costs a few milliseconds when compiling, the alternative costs in human-time are greater when programmers must learn them, explain them, search lists of #includes for their existence, and key the extra lines. Would anyone disagree that the total global seconds spent discussing those new headers (including this thread) will be orders of magnitude greater than the total global compile time of putting them in the map/set headers? Compiling with no optimisation the following program: -- #ifdef UNORDERED #include <tr1/unordered_map> #endif #include <map> int main(void) {} -- (I ran these a few times first to get over the initial slowdown and get things into cache) time g++ prog.cc real 0m0.488s user 0m0.245s sys 0m0.113s time g++ prog.cc -DUNORDERED real 0m5.049s user 0m3.143s sys 0m0.604s I think if you imposed that on everyone, it would be quite serious! If I use pre-compiled headers, the differences do get much smaller With unordered_map real 0m0.338s user 0m0.079s sys 0m0.149s Without unordered_map real 0m0.199s user 0m0.053s sys 0m0.078s So, this suggests once everyone is using precompiled headers, things should get much better (For those who don't know, using pre-compiled headers on a recent g++ is very easy. Just type "g++ header.h", and a new file called header.h.pch will appear, and be automatically picked up when you include the header. As you can see, speed improvements can be impressive.) Chris --- [ comp.std.c++ is moderated. To submit articles, try just posting with ] [ your news-reader. If that fails, use mailto:std-c++@ncar.ucar.edu ] [ --- Please see the FAQ before posting. --- ] [ FAQ: http://www.jamesd.demon.co.uk/csc/faq.html ] Back to top scottz Guest Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 2:45 pm    Post subject: Re: standard library ideas OK, you convinced me. Thanks for the helpful replies. --- [ comp.std.c++ is moderated. 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