C++Talk.NET C++ language newsgroups   Archives   FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  regarding "perils of java schools"          C++Talk.NET Forum Index -> C++ Language (Moderated) View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message arnuld Guest Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:15 pm    Post subject: regarding "perils of java schools" { the author of this post has been around Usenet for some time asking about different languages, C++ included, so please take the "it is not a troll" statement with a dash of salt. -mod } i read Joel Spolsky's article " http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/ThePerilsofJavaSchools.html" i want to learn C++ *without* learning C. i have only 1 year at my hands because of "financial constraints" & within this 1 year i want to do network programming with C++ as most of jobs in my country (INDIA) require: "C++ & Network Programming experience &/OR Experience on UNIX". ( i did job search @ www.monsterindia.com). i am using Linux from last 1 year or so & i did some Common Lisp from http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ . i want to know whether by doing *only* C++ & not learning C: 1.) i will really miss that "part of brain" 2.) i will not able to know what is going "under the hood" & hence will loose technical competency. job, earning money is my only concern for the present. any views? it is a genuine question i am asking, not a troll. thanks "arnuld" [ See http://www.gotw.ca/resources/clcm.htm for info about ] [ comp.lang.c++.moderated. First time posters: Do this! ] Back to top Carlos Moreno Guest Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:29 am    Post subject: Re: regarding "perils of java schools" arnuld wrote: Quote: i want to know whether by doing *only* C++ & not learning C: 1.) i will really miss that "part of brain" 2.) i will not able to know what is going "under the hood" & hence will loose technical competency. job, earning money is my only concern for the present. any views? The typical issue is whether you need to master C *before* being able to learn C++. The classical view was that *of course*, and sadly, that's the reason why many many many C++ books really teach C; well, or rather, teach a "C-ized" version of C++ (IOW, they teach C++ the wrong way, because they create bad habits by encouraging "C idioms") The current view for that question is that not only the answer is an unqualified NO, but it seems like it is about the worst possible idea to learn C first. If you *want* to learn (and possibly master) *both* C and C++, you should definitely learn C++ first (unless you already have some background like assembly programming or some other low-level "mindset"). If you only want to learn one of them (either C or C++, but not both), you can go ahead too -- you can learn C without having learned C++ first, and you can definitely learn C++ without having learned C first. The crucial detail, IMO, is that if you're planning to learn C++, then you'll have a harder time if you learned C first, since it creates many hard-to-break bad habits (habits that are fine in C, but that are considered bad in C++ ... And they do tend to be hard-to-break). Of course, you *should* know that what you really should be learning is *prorgamming skills*, rather than focusing on a specific language ... You might want to take a look at Peter Norvig's masterpiece, "Teach Yourself Programming in Ten Years", http://www.norvig.com/21-days.html for an interesting point o view. HTH, Carlos -- [ See http://www.gotw.ca/resources/clcm.htm for info about ] [ comp.lang.c++.moderated. First time posters: Do this! ] Back to top loufoque Guest Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 5:40 am    Post subject: Re: regarding "perils of java schools" arnuld wrote : Quote: i want to learn C++ *without* learning C. i have only 1 year at my hands because of "financial constraints" & within this 1 year i want to do network programming with C++ as most of jobs in my country (INDIA) require: "C++ & Network Programming experience &/OR Experience on UNIX". In your jobs you will probably use the C API POSIX systems provide for networking and such. Therefore I would say you need to know both the C and C++ approaches at programming. [ See http://www.gotw.ca/resources/clcm.htm for info about ] [ comp.lang.c++.moderated. First time posters: Do this! ] Back to top Francis Glassborow Guest Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 10:53 pm    Post subject: Re: regarding "perils of java schools" In article <1158852105.147273.117990 (AT) m73g2000cwd (DOT) googlegroups.com>, arnuld <arnuld3 (AT) gmail (DOT) com> writes Quote: { the author of this post has been around Usenet for some time asking about different languages, C++ included, so please take the "it is not a troll" statement with a dash of salt. -mod } I think that comment is out of order as a moderation comment. -- Francis Glassborow ACCU Author of 'You Can Do It!' and "You Can Program in C++" see http://www.spellen.org/youcandoit For project ideas and contributions: http://www.spellen.org/youcandoit/projects [ See http://www.gotw.ca/resources/clcm.htm for info about ] [ comp.lang.c++.moderated. First time posters: Do this! ] Back to top Francis Glassborow Guest Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 10:54 pm    Post subject: Re: regarding "perils of java schools" In article <1158901755.753263.33410 (AT) i42g2000cwa (DOT) googlegroups.com>, Jiang <goo.mail01 (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> writes Quote: arnuld wrote: i want to learn C++ *without* learning C. "Accelerated C++" by Andrew Koenig and Barbara Moo is the best choice for you in my mind. And not the most recent edition of 'The C++ Primer' or even my own book 'You Can Program in C++' ? Giving advice needs to be done carefully because very few have a comprehensive knowledge of what is available. Both AC++ and YCPiC++ assume that the reader can program (or is a very quick study -- rare but such people do exist) The C++ Primer (4th edition) is a much more substantial book but probably makes fewer assumptions about its readers prior programming experience. -- Francis Glassborow ACCU Author of 'You Can Do It!' and "You Can Program in C++" see http://www.spellen.org/youcandoit For project ideas and contributions: http://www.spellen.org/youcandoit/projects [ See http://www.gotw.ca/resources/clcm.htm for info about ] [ comp.lang.c++.moderated. First time posters: Do this! ] Back to top Jiang Guest Posted: Sat Sep 23, 2006 7:05 pm    Post subject: Re: regarding "perils of java schools" Francis Glassborow wrote: Quote: In article <1158901755.753263.33410 (AT) i42g2000cwa (DOT) googlegroups.com>, Jiang goo.mail01 (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> writes arnuld wrote: i want to learn C++ *without* learning C. "Accelerated C++" by Andrew Koenig and Barbara Moo is the best choice for you in my mind. And not the most recent edition of 'The C++ Primer' or Great book, but If I am asked to recommend just one book to a C++ beginner, I will still choose "Accelerated C++". Quote: even my own book 'You Can Program in C++' ? Not yet read your book, maybe it is a good book. Quote: Giving advice needs to be done carefully because very few have a comprehensive knowledge of what is available. I believe I was quite careful in my previous post. Of course you are right that I did not read all of the C++ books, and I do lack a "comprehensive knowledge" of what is available, but this does not prevent me from showing *my* idea in this group at all. If you, or any other experts (yes, very few), want to give comments or correct me on how to choose a book for C++ beginner, please feel free to do so, that's the point for this moderated group. Compared with keeping silence, a pointer to ACCU is a choice, but there are still many "highly-recommended" books, so I showed my opinion directly. And now, to be careful enough I will restate my recommendation as: 1. "Accelerated C++" by Andrew Koenig and Barbara Moo is *one of the best choice* for you in my mind. 2. Use this recommendation at your own risk. 3. You are warned. Quote: Both AC++ and YCPiC++ assume that the reader can program (or is a very quick study -- rare but such people do exist) If possible, would you please show the differences between "Accelerated C++" and your book directly? It maybe help for me, or any other C++ beginners. [ See http://www.gotw.ca/resources/clcm.htm for info about ] [ comp.lang.c++.moderated. First time posters: Do this! ] Back to top Francis Glassborow Guest Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 5:07 am    Post subject: Re: regarding "perils of java schools" In article <1158980408.028929.231420 (AT) e3g2000cwe (DOT) googlegroups.com>, Jiang <goo.mail01 (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> writes Quote: If possible, would you please show the differences between "Accelerated C++" and your book directly? Well one small difference (English habit of understatement) is that I explicitly try to identify places in C++ which may cause problems to newcomers because of their previous programming language. However the point I wish to make is that giving advice on which book to use without knowing something about the persons background, experience and goals is usually unwise. It is easy to identify bad books but which of the handful of good books (and I hope mine is one such) is most appropriate is harder, and impossible if you do not know what the competition is. A lot of people jump in and recommend AC++ regardless. I think even its authors would have some reservations about its unconditional suitability. And note that I was one of the first people to review AC++ and gave it a very positive review. I also think very highly of the 4th edition of C++ Primer, not least because of the strong influence of Andy Koenig on the final text (in case you do not know the added co-author who actually did the rewrite and reconstruction that created the 4th edition, is Andy's wife and knowing them as well as I do I am quite sure that Barbara got Andy to review all the material before it was released0 -- Francis Glassborow ACCU Author of 'You Can Do It!' and "You Can Program in C++" see http://www.spellen.org/youcandoit For project ideas and contributions: http://www.spellen.org/youcandoit/projects [ See http://www.gotw.ca/resources/clcm.htm for info about ] [ comp.lang.c++.moderated. First time posters: Do this! ] Back to top Jiang Guest Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 9:10 am    Post subject: Re: regarding "perils of java schools" Francis Glassborow wrote: Quote: In article <1158980408.028929.231420 (AT) e3g2000cwe (DOT) googlegroups.com>, Jiang goo.mail01 (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> writes If possible, would you please show the differences between "Accelerated C++" and your book directly? Well one small difference (English habit of understatement) is that I explicitly try to identify places in C++ which may cause problems to newcomers because of their previous programming language. Thank you for your consideration, as I said before I do not have a chance to read your book, but 1. Do we really need this kind of comparison? If all points are clearly illustrated and I believe the differences should be obvious. 2. What are the "previous programming language" used in your book? Java? Basic? C? Ada? Python? Add one Java comparison will possibly waste time/money for the people who do not know/care Java. 3. Also I do not think a book with only 388 pages could do such a comparison systematically. Write a all-in-one book for C++ language is just unwise, also I do not believe it is possible. I am definitely not trying to say this is not a good style, actually I am considering an order of your book and hope I can find time to check it by myself. Quote: However the point I wish to make is that giving advice on which book to use without knowing something about the persons background, experience and goals is usually unwise. It is easy to identify bad books but which of the handful of good books (and I hope mine is one such) is most appropriate is harder, and impossible if you do not know what the competition is. I see you point, but as you said, not all the people have the chance to read all of the C++ books in the world. So what should we do? Well, I know keeping silence is the safest way, but anything else? Quote: A lot of people jump in and recommend AC++ regardless. Hmm..., personally I think here the word "regardless" is too strong. If "regardless" means recommend a C++ book without checking your book, maybe you are right. However, your book was not available until this summer, it is not easy to update my book ranking within such a short time. Seems same in ACCU... Quote: I think even its authors would have some reservations about its unconditional suitability. Yes, they do have. http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c++/browse_frm/thread/bdffa2920e530c31/228ed7050c3bbb53?lnk=st&q=Barbara++c%2B%2B+primer&rnum=1#228ed7050c3bbb53 Quote: And note that I was one of the first people to review AC++ and gave it a very positive review. Yes, I read it. I bookmarked ACCU quite long time ago. Quote: I also think very highly of the 4th edition of C++ Primer, not least because of the strong influence of Andy Koenig on the final text(in case you do not know the added co-author who actually did the rewrite and reconstruction that created the 4th edition, is Andy's wife and knowing them as well as I do I am quite sure that Barbara got Andy to review all the material before it was released0 So what's your point here? Actually I knew that * Barbara Moo is Andrew Koenig's wife, and * they did make lots of efforts to improve the "C++ Primer" * When C++ was developed in ATT, Barbara Moo was the boss of Bjarne Stroustrup, Andrew Koenig, Stanley Lippman... * Andrew Koenig is also a photographer, and someone wrongly believe that Barbara Moo is Asian. * ... But do I really need to know these kinds of stories before recommending a book? BTW, I still can not figure out what is your opinion on this topic. As a top expert in C++, would you please just simply recommend one book for a C++ beginner, on the condition that we do not know the exact model of his background? (but estimation models can be used, of course) Thank you for your time. [ See http://www.gotw.ca/resources/clcm.htm for info about ] [ comp.lang.c++.moderated. First time posters: Do this! ] Back to top Keith H Duggar Guest Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 9:10 am    Post subject: Re: regarding "perils of java schools" Jiang wrote: Quote: Francis Glassborow wrote: even my own book 'You Can Program in C++' ? Not yet read your book, maybe it is a good book. If his (Francis Glassborow) general contributions to the C++ community and group postings are any indication, "You Can Program in C++" is mostly likely an /excellent/ book. IIRC he also has many years of teaching experience. This too bodes well. I wonder if James Kanze has any plans to write a book? Hopefully one day. -- Keith -- Fraud 6 [ See http://www.gotw.ca/resources/clcm.htm for info about ] [ comp.lang.c++.moderated. First time posters: Do this! ] Back to top Alf P. Steinbach Guest Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 9:40 pm    Post subject: Re: regarding "perils of java schools" * Francis Glassborow: Quote: * Victor Bazarov: { the author of this post has been around Usenet for some time asking about different languages, C++ included, so please take the "it is not a troll" statement with a dash of salt. -mod } I think that comment is out of order as a moderation comment. Agreed. But possibly this is an "idiomatic English language" versus native language issue, that Victor really meant that one should disregard the article's mention of trolling, i.e. that this article was /not/ a troll despite that mention (although the article's acceptance already says that, so no further comment needed, IMHO). Victor? However, the moderation guidelines (link in the banner at the end of this article) state that The moderator may inject a comment, if and only if the comment is a statement of fact rather than the opinion of the moderator, is brief, and there are no more than two such comments in the article and that Moderators will be extremely conservative with their use of notes. Most articles should not have any notes. Those that do should have only one, or at the most two. and on that basis, especially "[not] the opinion of the moderator", I think the comment is inappropriate no matter what the actual meaning was. More about moderation policy and moderation comments: By my own measure that a moderator's comment should not leave room for discussion about the comment -- it should IMHO be abundantly clear and correct, or otherwise just a statement of e.g. why a "too basic" question has been accepted -- some of my comments have been inappropriate, since there has been discussion about the comments. But I think that's because the comments have been too short and therefore unclear to some readers, like very terse operator-based C++ code*. OTOH., the guidelines above say comments should be brief, and I agree. So, (to what degree) should moderators post links to documentation of language extensions (as I have done twice, once for an MSVC and once for a g++ language extension), the FAQ, the LWG active issues, and such, in the cases when the relevance isn't necessarily 100% clear to all? *) As I recall moderation policy is always on-topic but I fail to find that spelled out in the moderation guidelines, so this mention of the ungrokkability of a special style of C++ code constitutes the mandatory general interest C++ content of the article, in case discussion of clc++m moderation policy isn't. ;-) -- A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is it such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail? [ See http://www.gotw.ca/resources/clcm.htm for info about ] [ comp.lang.c++.moderated. First time posters: Do this! ] Back to top arnuld Guest Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 9:41 pm    Post subject: Re: regarding "perils of java schools" Jiang wrote: Quote: Compared with keeping silence, a pointer to ACCU is a choice, but there are still many "highly-recommended" books, so I showed my opinion directly. so will you please show me your list of highly-recommended C++ books as "AC++" & "C++ Primer 4/e" are not available in India. i have 2 books on C++: 1.) "Thinking in C++" -- Oh my God. Bruce-Eckel makes heavy-use of C 2.) "C++ Primer 3/e" -- utterly incomprehensible Quote: And now, to be careful enough I will restate my recommendation as: 1. "Accelerated C++" by Andrew Koenig and Barbara Moo is *one of the best choice* for you in my mind. 2. Use this recommendation at your own risk. 3. You are warned. OK, but i still ask for your list as i think you are among the very-fews who *think* C++ is a different language & hence it it needs to be taught independently of C. "arnuld" [ See http://www.gotw.ca/resources/clcm.htm for info about ] [ comp.lang.c++.moderated. First time posters: Do this! ] Back to top James Dennett Guest Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 12:28 am    Post subject: Re: regarding "perils of java schools" arnuld wrote: Quote: Jiang wrote: Compared with keeping silence, a pointer to ACCU is a choice, but there are still many "highly-recommended" books, so I showed my opinion directly. so will you please show me your list of highly-recommended C++ books as "AC++" & "C++ Primer 4/e" are not available in India. i have 2 books on C++: 1.) "Thinking in C++" -- Oh my God. Bruce-Eckel makes heavy-use of C 2.) "C++ Primer 3/e" -- utterly incomprehensible And now, to be careful enough I will restate my recommendation as: 1. "Accelerated C++" by Andrew Koenig and Barbara Moo is *one of the best choice* for you in my mind. 2. Use this recommendation at your own risk. 3. You are warned. OK, but i still ask for your list as i think you are among the very-fews who *think* C++ is a different language & hence it it needs to be taught independently of C. C++ is a different language (though it has a large common subset shared with C), and teaching C++ well does require a lot of teaching separate from teaching about C, and is not necessarily helped greatly by a prior understanding of C. C++ Primer 4th edition is now a fine way to learn C++. Accelerated C++ is excellent if you're converting other programming experience and want an aggressive pace. I've not read Francis's "You Can Program in C++", but based on what I know of Francis, I'd expect it to be well-suited to its target audience, and to have far fewer errors than the vast majority of texts on C++. And of course "The C++ Programming Language" still has some authority, and for some people is very readable (though others find it inpenetrable; there's no accounting for taste). -- James [ See http://www.gotw.ca/resources/clcm.htm for info about ] [ comp.lang.c++.moderated. First time posters: Do this! ] Back to top Andrew Koenig Guest Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 2:40 am    Post subject: Re: regarding "perils of java schools" "Jiang" <goo.mail01 (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> wrote in message news:1159069169.389922.27190 (AT) k70g2000cwa (DOT) googlegroups.com... Quote: * When C++ was developed in ATT, Barbara Moo was the boss of Bjarne Stroustrup, Andrew Koenig, Stanley Lippman... You're one-third right about this, anyway... [ See http://www.gotw.ca/resources/clcm.htm for info about ] [ comp.lang.c++.moderated. First time posters: Do this! ] Back to top bjarne Guest Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 2:42 am    Post subject: Re: regarding "perils of java schools" Jiang wrote:> Quote: Actually I knew that ... * When C++ was developed in ATT, Barbara Moo was the boss of Bjarne Stroustrup, Andrew Koenig, Stanley Lippman... ... Just to try to avoid yet another myth. My friend Barbara was never my boss, nor were she the boss of her husband Andrew (the latter would have been against the AT&T nepotism rules). Quote: But do I really need to know these kinds of stories before recommending a book? No -- Bjarne Stroustrup; http://www.research.att.com/~bs [ See http://www.gotw.ca/resources/clcm.htm for info about ] [ comp.lang.c++.moderated. First time posters: Do this! ] Back to top bjarne Guest Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 8:07 pm    Post subject: Re: regarding "perils of java schools" Jiang wrote: Quote: {Though it adds nothing new, as a policy I allow apologies through. -mod} bjarne wrote: Jiang wrote: Actually I knew that ... * When C++ was developed in ATT, Barbara Moo was the boss of Bjarne Stroustrup, Andrew Koenig, Stanley Lippman... ... Just to try to avoid yet another myth. My friend Barbara was never my boss, nor were she the boss of her husband Andrew (the latter would have been against the AT&T nepotism rules). I apologize for the mess I've made. Seems I was misleaded by a not-so-accurate interview. But Sandy Fraser was one of your boss, right? Sandy Fraser was my department head for a couple of years. After that, Brian Kernighan was my department head for more than a decade. Those were great people to work for and with. Quote: I love D&E because it taught me both abstract concepts and vivid stories. Thank you for making these available. Thanks -- Bjarne Stroustrup; http://www.research.att.com/~bs [ See http://www.gotw.ca/resources/clcm.htm for info about ] [ comp.lang.c++.moderated. First time posters: Do this! ] Back to top Display posts from previous: All Posts1 Day7 Days2 Weeks1 Month3 Months6 Months1 Year Oldest FirstNewest First         C++Talk.NET Forum Index -> C++ Language (Moderated) All times are GMT Page 1 of 1   Jump to: Select a forum C/C++----------------C LanguageC Language (Moderated)C++ Language (Moderated)C++ language (comp.lang.c++)C++ language, library and standards Non-English C/C++ Newsgroups----------------C++ (German)C++ (French)  You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2006 phpBB Group SEO toolkit © 2004-2006 webmedic.