C++Talk.NET C++ language newsgroups   Archives   FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  Purchasing The Standard Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next          C++Talk.NET Forum Index -> C++ language (comp.lang.c++) View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message DaKoadMunky Guest Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2004 1:34 am    Post subject: Purchasing The Standard After having fancied myself a C++ programmer for the last nine years I figured it was about time that I actually obtain a copy of the standard rather than relying on other sources that claim to accurately represent the standard. Even the best intentioned author or newsgroup poster is capable of inaccurately representing the standard. I followed the FAQ link to http://www.techstreet.com/ and searched for 14882 as suggested. That brought up the following page... http://www.techstreet.com/cgi-bin/new_results?searchText=14882&searchType= docno&newSearch=1&sort=rel&submit.x=15&submit.y=16 Aside from the format in which they are distributed, can anyone tell me the difference between the various items presented? I am confused about which one would be the most accurate source of information. What is the difference between ISO/IEC 14882:2003 and INCITS/ISO/IEC 14882:2003 ? The former can only be purchased as a softcover book for $325. The latter can be purchased as a PDF document for $18. My broke and unemployed self likes the latter much better, but I want to be aware of what I won't be getting if I order it. Furthermore, how long will it be until the current standard is superceded? If it is only six-months to a year maybe I should wait. And what about all the TC's and TR's. Are those freely available or must they also be purchased? Any insight would be appreciated. Regards, Brian F. Seaberg P.S. I am also thinking about getting TCPPLSE. If I could only buy either the standard document or the Stroustrup book, which would most recommended? On the one hand the standard is probably pretty dry reading, but it is authoritative and I want to know the whole truth. On the other hand the Stroustrup book probably discusses not only the elements of the language but the best practices associated with those language elements which may be more appropriate for someone who isn't going to be writing compilers and tools. I want to know the language very well, but I can't say I want to be a language lawyer. I would rather know how to effectively use a subset of the language rather than know the language inside and out but not know how to apply it effectively. Back to top Ioannis Vranos Guest Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2004 2:00 am    Post subject: Re: Purchasing The Standard DaKoadMunky wrote: Quote: After having fancied myself a C++ programmer for the last nine years I figured it was about time that I actually obtain a copy of the standard rather than relying on other sources that claim to accurately represent the standard. Even the best intentioned author or newsgroup poster is capable of inaccurately representing the standard. I followed the FAQ link to http://www.techstreet.com/ and searched for 14882 as suggested. That brought up the following page... http://www.techstreet.com/cgi-bin/new_results?searchText=14882&searchType= docno&newSearch=1&sort=rel&submit.x=15&submit.y=16 Aside from the format in which they are distributed, can anyone tell me the difference between the various items presented? I am confused about which one would be the most accurate source of information. What is the difference between ISO/IEC 14882:2003 and INCITS/ISO/IEC 14882:2003 ? The former can only be purchased as a softcover book for $325. The latter can be purchased as a PDF document for $18. My broke and unemployed self likes the latter much better, but I want to be aware of what I won't be getting if I order it. They are the same. Quote: Furthermore, how long will it be until the current standard is superceded? If it is only six-months to a year maybe I should wait. Years. Quote: And what about all the TC's and TR's. Are those freely available or must they also be purchased? The 14882:2003 is the latest official ISO C++ standard (which contains fixes of 14882:1998, so it is the 14882:1998 bug-fixed ). Quote: P.S. I am also thinking about getting TCPPLSE. If I could only buy either the standard document or the Stroustrup book, which would most recommended? The *book* of course. The standard is intended for the compiler implementers and if you decide to pursue a career as a language lawyer in here. :-) Quote: On the one hand the standard is probably pretty dry reading, but it is authoritative and I want to know the whole truth. On the other hand the Stroustrup book probably discusses not only the elements of the language but the best practices associated with those language elements which may be more appropriate for someone who isn't going to be writing compilers and tools. I want to know the language very well, but I can't say I want to be a language lawyer. I would rather know how to effectively use a subset of the language rather than know the language inside and out but not know how to apply it effectively. The book no question. The book will make you not only a better C++ programmer but a better programmer too. It provides much insight. Regards, Ioannis Vranos Back to top Andrew Koenig Guest Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2004 2:35 am    Post subject: Re: Purchasing The Standard "DaKoadMunky" <dakoadmunky (AT) aol (DOT) com> wrote Quote: What is the difference between ISO/IEC 14882:2003 and INCITS/ISO/IEC 14882:2003 ? The former can only be purchased as a softcover book for $325. The latter can be purchased as a PDF document for $18. My broke and unemployed self likes the latter much better, but I want to be aware of what I won't be getting if I order it. You can buy the same text, albeit with a different page layout, as a Wiley book for between $55 and $65, depending on where you look. The book is called "The C++ Standard", and its ISBN is 0-470-84674-7. Back to top JKop Guest Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2004 10:03 am    Post subject: Re: Purchasing The Standard DaKoadMunky posted: Quote: After having fancied myself a C++ programmer for the last nine years I figured it was about time that I actually obtain a copy of the standard rather than relying on other sources that claim to accurately represent the standard. Even the best intentioned author or newsgroup poster is capable of inaccurately representing the standard. I followed the FAQ link to http://www.techstreet.com/ and searched for 14882 as suggested. That brought up the following page... http://www.techstreet.com/cgi-bin/new_results?searchText=14882&searchTyp e= docno&newSearch=1&sort=rel&submit.x=15&submit.y=16 Aside from the format in which they are distributed, can anyone tell me the difference between the various items presented? I am confused about which one would be the most accurate source of information. What is the difference between ISO/IEC 14882:2003 and INCITS/ISO/IEC 14882:2003 ? The former can only be purchased as a softcover book for $325. The latter can be purchased as a PDF document for $18. My broke and unemployed self likes the latter much better, but I want to be aware of what I won't be getting if I order it. Furthermore, how long will it be until the current standard is superceded? If it is only six-months to a year maybe I should wait. And what about all the TC's and TR's. Are those freely available or must they also be purchased? Any insight would be appreciated. Regards, Brian F. Seaberg P.S. I am also thinking about getting TCPPLSE. If I could only buy either the standard document or the Stroustrup book, which would most recommended? On the one hand the standard is probably pretty dry reading, but it is authoritative and I want to know the whole truth. On the other hand the Stroustrup book probably discusses not only the elements of the language but the best practices associated with those language elements which may be more appropriate for someone who isn't going to be writing compilers and tools. I want to know the language very well, but I can't say I want to be a language lawyer. I would rather know how to effectively use a subset of the language rather than know the language inside and out but not know how to apply it effectively. I have the Standard from 1998. If you want it I'll email it to you. Just remember to muddle your email address a little, eg. [email]johnNO_SPAM (AT) blah (DOT) com[/email] Anyone here got the latest Standard and would offer to email it to me? Sharing is caring. -JKop Back to top dumboo Guest Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2004 12:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Purchasing The Standard hi i would be really gratefull if u can email me the standard aswell, vasudev + sharma + 1 + at + hot + mail + .com Back to top Pete C. Guest Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2004 1:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Purchasing The Standard JKop wrote: <snip> Quote: I have the Standard from 1998. If you want it I'll email it to you. Just remember to muddle your email address a little, eg. [email]johnNO_SPAM (AT) blah (DOT) com[/email] Anyone here got the latest Standard and would offer to email it to me? Sharing is caring. Absolutly not. Aside from the fact that that would be a blatent copyright violation, the PDFs are watermarked with your purchase info to prevent such abhorrant things. - Pete Quote: -JKop Back to top Julie Guest Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2004 3:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Purchasing The Standard "Pete C." wrote: Quote: JKop wrote: snip I have the Standard from 1998. If you want it I'll email it to you. Just remember to muddle your email address a little, eg. [email]johnNO_SPAM (AT) blah (DOT) com[/email] Anyone here got the latest Standard and would offer to email it to me? Sharing is caring. Absolutly not. Aside from the fact that that would be a blatent copyright violation, the PDFs are watermarked with your purchase info to prevent such abhorrant things. - Pete -JKop Is the PDF protected against printing and/or text-select-copy? Back to top karen Guest Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2004 5:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Purchasing The Standard "JKop" <NULL (AT) NULL (DOT) NULL> wrote Quote: Pete C. posted: JKop wrote: snip I have the Standard from 1998. If you want it I'll email it to you. Just remember to muddle your email address a little, eg. [email]johnNO_SPAM (AT) blah (DOT) com[/email] Anyone here got the latest Standard and would offer to email it to me? Sharing is caring. Absolutly not. Aside from the fact that that would be a blatent copyright violation, the PDFs are watermarked with your purchase info to prevent such abhorrant things. - Pete -JKop In my day, when you bought something, it was yours. You could set it on fire, throw it off a cliff, give it to a friend, or eat it. -JKop And, if you treat it like a book, you can only lend it to one person at a time, and you can't use it while it is lent out. You were going to follow that at least, right? Copying the book and handing copies out to all your friends was always illegal, even if you did buy it. -karen Back to top JKop Guest Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2004 5:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Purchasing The Standard Pete C. posted: Quote: JKop wrote: snip I have the Standard from 1998. If you want it I'll email it to you. Just remember to muddle your email address a little, eg. [email]johnNO_SPAM (AT) blah (DOT) com[/email] Anyone here got the latest Standard and would offer to email it to me? Sharing is caring. Absolutly not. Aside from the fact that that would be a blatent copyright violation, the PDFs are watermarked with your purchase info to prevent such abhorrant things. - Pete -JKop In my day, when you bought something, it was yours. You could set it on fire, throw it off a cliff, give it to a friend, or eat it. -JKop Back to top JKop Guest Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2004 5:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Purchasing The Standard dumboo posted: Quote: hi i would be really gratefull if u can email me the standard aswell, vasudev + sharma + 1 + at + hot + mail + .com The 1998 version? -JKop Back to top JKop Guest Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2004 5:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Purchasing The Standard karen posted: Quote: And, if you treat it like a book, you can only lend it to one person at a time, and you can't use it while it is lent out. You were going to follow that at least, right? Copying the book and handing copies out to all your friends was always illegal, even if you did buy it. -karen I don't care. -JKop Back to top Alexander Terekhov Guest Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2004 5:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Purchasing The Standard karen wrote: [...] Quote: And, if you treat it like a book, you can only lend it to one person at a time, and you can't use it while it is lent out. You were going to follow that at least, right? http://www.copyright.gov/reports/studies/dmca/dmca_executive.html <quote> The first sale doctrine is primarily a limitation on the copyright owner's exclusive right of distribution. It does not limit the exclusive right of reproduction. While disposition of a work downloaded to a floppy disk would only implicate the distribution right, the transmission of a work from one person to another over the Internet results in a reproduction on the recipient's computer, even if the sender subsequently deletes the original copy of the work. This activity therefore entails an exercise of an exclusive right that is not covered by section 109. Proponents of expansion of the scope of section 109 to include the transmission and deletion of a digital file argue that this activity is essentially identical to the transfer of a physical copy and that the similarities outweigh the differences. While it is true that there are similarities, we find the analogy to the physical world to be flawed and unconvincing. </quote> In the totally perverse view of Red Hat, Inc. ("digital first sale" almost completely nullifies the GPL), Time Warner, Inc., etc., teleportation http://www.research.ibm.com/quantuminfo/teleportation would be illigal. regards, alexander. Back to top JKop Guest Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2004 6:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Purchasing The Standard Alexander Terekhov posted: Quote: quote The first sale doctrine is primarily a limitation on the copyright owner's exclusive right of distribution. It does not limit the exclusive right of reproduction. While disposition of a work downloaded to a floppy disk would only implicate the distribution right, the transmission of a work from one person to another over the Internet results in a reproduction on the recipient's computer, even if the sender subsequently deletes the original copy of the work. This activity therefore entails an exercise of an exclusive right that is not covered by section 109. Proponents of expansion of the scope of section 109 to include the transmission and deletion of a digital file argue that this activity is essentially identical to the transfer of a physical copy and that the similarities outweigh the differences. While it is true that there are similarities, we find the analogy to the physical world to be flawed and unconvincing. /quote So let's go out to international waters with a laptop, copy it onto a floppy, and come back. -JKop Back to top Alexander Terekhov Guest Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2004 6:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Purchasing The Standard JKop wrote: [...] Quote: So let's go out to international waters with a laptop, copy it onto a floppy, and come back. Yeah. < quotes from dmca/sec-104-report-vol-<2|3>.pdf > Red Hat, Inc.: Let me just clarify that I don't think anyone today intends to impact our licensing practices. I haven't seen anything in the comments, nor have I heard anything today that makes me think someone does have that intention. What we're concerned about are unintended consequences of any amendments to Section 109. The primary difference between digital and nondigital products with respect to Section 109 is that the former are frequently licensed. ... product is also available for free downloaded from the Internet without the printed documentation, without the box, and without the installation service. Many open source and free software products also embody the concept of copyleft. ... We are asking that amendments not be recommended that would jeopardize the ability of open source and free software licensor to require [blah blah] Time Warner, Inc.: We note that the initial downloading of a copy, from an authorized source to a purchaser's computer, can result in lawful ownership of a copy stored in a tangible medium. Library Associations: First, as conceded by Time Warner, digital transmissions can result in the fixation of a tangible copy. By intentionally engaging in digital transmissions with the awareness that a tangible copy is made on the recipient's computer, copyright owners are indeed transferring ownership of a copy of the work to lawful recipients. Second, the position advanced by Time Warner and the Copyright Industry Organizations is premised on a formalistic reading of a particular codification of the first sale doctrine. When technological change renders the literal meaning of a statutory provision ambiguous, that provision "must be construed in light of its basic purpose" and "should not be so narrowly construed as to permit evasion because of changing habits due to new inventions and discoveries." Twentieth Century Music Corp. v. Aiken, 422 U.S. 151, 156-158 (1975). The basic purpose of the first sale doctrine is to facilitate the continued flow of property throughout society. regards, alexander. Back to top Alan Johnson Guest Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2004 9:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Purchasing The Standard Julie wrote: Quote: "Pete C." wrote: JKop wrote: snip I have the Standard from 1998. If you want it I'll email it to you. Just remember to muddle your email address a little, eg. [email]johnNO_SPAM (AT) blah (DOT) com[/email] Anyone here got the latest Standard and would offer to email it to me? Sharing is caring. Absolutly not. Aside from the fact that that would be a blatent copyright violation, the PDFs are watermarked with your purchase info to prevent such abhorrant things. - Pete -JKop Is the PDF protected against printing and/or text-select-copy? INCITS/ISO/IEC 14882:2003 is not. I can't comment on other versions. 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