C++Talk.NET C++ language newsgroups   Archives   FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  My Problem | What is right for ...          C++Talk.NET Forum Index -> C Language (Moderated) View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message Guest Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 8:19 pm    Post subject: My Problem | What is right for ... Hi i was searching google for c vs. c++ for finding good answers for this question and found here i searched and viewd last topics aboat this, but i didnt find my answer ... :( i'm a php programer and program web application for two years, i know ruby and rails too ( but not good as php) i want to start a poor ( i will explain what is poor for me ) programin language in other hand side ( not web, client based ). i know some Vb, and C# , but this are commersial language ! they are not fed me ! i want freely ! i think a poor language is a language that i can do everything i want, what i want ? i want all of thing ... Linux & Windows Programing, for example ( my dream ) write grahical user interface for linux like gnome, working with audio and video codecs, 3d games, write php extension, or hmm write browsers ! write image editing programs and ... ! look ! i dont want write this programs now ! but i want to do it, when i need, i want learn c or c++ for do this things, if c can fed me, i will learn c, or c++ is good ( with OO Suppot ) i will learn cpp, i dont want to for example learn cpp and when i need to write a porgram ( for example a web server ) i cant do it please help me friends .... thanx alot ... -- comp.lang.c.moderated - moderation address: clcm (AT) plethora (DOT) net -- you must have an appropriate newsgroups line in your header for your mail to be seen, or the newsgroup name in square brackets in the subject line. Sorry. Back to top WillerZ Guest Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 5:16 pm    Post subject: Re: My Problem | What is right for ... Oliver Wong wrote: Quote: Payam.Babaiy (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote in message news:clcm-20070416-0054 (AT) plethora (DOT) net... if c can fed me, i will learn c, or c++ is good ( with OO Suppot ) i will learn cpp, i dont want to for example learn cpp and when i need to write a porgram ( for example a web server ) i cant do it Both languages are Turing Complete, meaning essentially any program you can write in one language, you could also write in the other. Actually, no implementation of either language is Turing Complete. A Turing Complete language is one which can simulate the operation of a turing machine. A Turing Machine has an infinitely long tape, and can therefore record an infinite number of things. In C or C++, everything can be addressed by a void *, and the size of a void * must be defined (CHAR_BIT * sizeof(void *) bits). Therefore any implementation of either language is limited to recording a finite number of things. -- comp.lang.c.moderated - moderation address: clcm (AT) plethora (DOT) net -- you must have an appropriate newsgroups line in your header for your mail to be seen, or the newsgroup name in square brackets in the subject line. Sorry. Back to top Keith Thompson Guest Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 10:59 pm    Post subject: Re: My Problem | What is right for ... WillerZ <newsreplies (AT) willerz (DOT) plus.net> writes: Quote: Oliver Wong wrote: Payam.Babaiy (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote in message news:clcm-20070416-0054 (AT) plethora (DOT) net... if c can fed me, i will learn c, or c++ is good ( with OO Suppot ) i will learn cpp, i dont want to for example learn cpp and when i need to write a porgram ( for example a web server ) i cant do it Both languages are Turing Complete, meaning essentially any program you can write in one language, you could also write in the other. Actually, no implementation of either language is Turing Complete. A Turing Complete language is one which can simulate the operation of a turing machine. A Turing Machine has an infinitely long tape, and can therefore record an infinite number of things. In C or C++, everything can be addressed by a void *, and the size of a void * must be defined (CHAR_BIT * sizeof(void *) bits). Therefore any implementation of either language is limited to recording a finite number of things. Files. -- Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) kst-u (AT) mib (DOT) org <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst> San Diego Supercomputer Center <*> <http://users.sdsc.edu/~kst> "We must do something. This is something. Therefore, we must do this." -- Antony Jay and Jonathan Lynn, "Yes Minister" -- comp.lang.c.moderated - moderation address: clcm (AT) plethora (DOT) net -- you must have an appropriate newsgroups line in your header for your mail to be seen, or the newsgroup name in square brackets in the subject line. Sorry. Back to top Kenneth Brody Guest Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 10:59 pm    Post subject: Re: My Problem | What is right for ... WillerZ wrote: Quote: Oliver Wong wrote: [... C and C++ ...] Both languages are Turing Complete, meaning essentially any program you can write in one language, you could also write in the other. Actually, no implementation of either language is Turing Complete. A Turing Complete language is one which can simulate the operation of a turing machine. A Turing Machine has an infinitely long tape, and can therefore record an infinite number of things. In C or C++, everything can be addressed by a void *, and the size of a void * must be defined (CHAR_BIT * sizeof(void *) bits). Therefore any implementation of either language is limited to recording a finite number of things. Nothing says you can't use virtual memory. While it's true not there is no such thing as "infinite storage", you can have "arbitrarily large storage". As long as the hardware and O/S support it, you can use an arbitrarily large storage device, along with some "bignum" library to hold the data. Does a Turing machine really need inifite storage, or does it simply need to never hit either end of the "infinitely long" tape? -- +-------------------------+--------------------+-----------------------+ | Kenneth J. Brody | www.hvcomputer.com | #include | | kenbrody/at\spamcop.net | www.fptech.com | <std_disclaimer.h> | +-------------------------+--------------------+-----------------------+ Don't e-mail me at: <mailto:ThisIsASpamTrap (AT) gmail (DOT) com> -- comp.lang.c.moderated - moderation address: clcm (AT) plethora (DOT) net -- you must have an appropriate newsgroups line in your header for your mail to be seen, or the newsgroup name in square brackets in the subject line. Sorry. Back to top Keith Thompson Guest Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 1:58 am    Post subject: Re: My Problem | What is right for ... Kenneth Brody <kenbrody (AT) spamcop (DOT) net> writes: Quote: WillerZ wrote: Oliver Wong wrote: [... C and C++ ...] Both languages are Turing Complete, meaning essentially any program you can write in one language, you could also write in the other. Actually, no implementation of either language is Turing Complete. A Turing Complete language is one which can simulate the operation of a turing machine. A Turing Machine has an infinitely long tape, and can therefore record an infinite number of things. In C or C++, everything can be addressed by a void *, and the size of a void * must be defined (CHAR_BIT * sizeof(void *) bits). Therefore any implementation of either language is limited to recording a finite number of things. Nothing says you can't use virtual memory. While it's true not there is no such thing as "infinite storage", you can have "arbitrarily large storage". As long as the hardware and O/S support it, you can use an arbitrarily large storage device, along with some "bignum" library to hold the data. Addressible storage is still limited by the size of void*. Each byte of each existing object must have a distinct address, and there can be at most 2**(CHAR_BIT * sizeof void*) such addresses. Quote: Does a Turing machine really need inifite storage, or does it simply need to never hit either end of the "infinitely long" tape? If I recall correctly, it really needs unbounded storage -- which can (theoretically) be obtained in C by using a file. -- Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) kst-u (AT) mib (DOT) org <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst> San Diego Supercomputer Center <*> <http://users.sdsc.edu/~kst> "We must do something. This is something. Therefore, we must do this." -- Antony Jay and Jonathan Lynn, "Yes Minister" -- comp.lang.c.moderated - moderation address: clcm (AT) plethora (DOT) net -- you must have an appropriate newsgroups line in your header for your mail to be seen, or the newsgroup name in square brackets in the subject line. Sorry. Back to top Oliver Wong Guest Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 1:58 am    Post subject: Re: My Problem | What is right for ... "Kenneth Brody" <kenbrody (AT) spamcop (DOT) net> wrote in message news:clcm-20070423-0008 (AT) plethora (DOT) net... Quote: WillerZ wrote: Oliver Wong wrote: [... C and C++ ...] Both languages are Turing Complete, meaning essentially any program you can write in one language, you could also write in the other. Actually, no implementation of either language is Turing Complete. A Turing Complete language is one which can simulate the operation of a turing machine. A Turing Machine has an infinitely long tape, and can therefore record an infinite number of things. In C or C++, everything can be addressed by a void *, and the size of a void * must be defined (CHAR_BIT * sizeof(void *) bits). Therefore any implementation of either language is limited to recording a finite number of things. I was going to say that the C and C++ languages themselves are Turing Complete, while particular implementations of those languages may not be, but the issue was pedantic enough that I was willing to let it slide... Quote: Nothing says you can't use virtual memory. While it's true not there is no such thing as "infinite storage", you can have "arbitrarily large storage". As long as the hardware and O/S support it, you can use an arbitrarily large storage device, along with some "bignum" library to hold the data. Does a Turing machine really need inifite storage, or does it simply need to never hit either end of the "infinitely long" tape? A TM needs infinite storage simply because you can't know ahead of time how much storage you need. A "well-formed" (my terminology, not sure what the official term is) TM will always terminate, and thus does not actually use an infinite amount of tape. But a "well-formed" TM is not allowed to report "Error: Ran out of tape", and the only way to satisfy that requirement is to have infinite tape. - Oliver -- comp.lang.c.moderated - moderation address: clcm (AT) plethora (DOT) net -- you must have an appropriate newsgroups line in your header for your mail to be seen, or the newsgroup name in square brackets in the subject line. Sorry. Back to top WillerZ Guest Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 1:58 am    Post subject: Re: My Problem | What is right for ... Keith Thompson wrote: Quote: WillerZ <newsreplies (AT) willerz (DOT) plus.net> writes: Oliver Wong wrote: Payam.Babaiy (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote in message news:clcm-20070416-0054 (AT) plethora (DOT) net... if c can fed me, i will learn c, or c++ is good ( with OO Suppot ) i will learn cpp, i dont want to for example learn cpp and when i need to write a porgram ( for example a web server ) i cant do it Both languages are Turing Complete, meaning essentially any program you can write in one language, you could also write in the other. Actually, no implementation of either language is Turing Complete. A Turing Complete language is one which can simulate the operation of a turing machine. A Turing Machine has an infinitely long tape, and can therefore record an infinite number of things. In C or C++, everything can be addressed by a void *, and the size of a void * must be defined (CHAR_BIT * sizeof(void *) bits). Therefore any implementation of either language is limited to recording a finite number of things. Files. The number of file names available to the standard file routines (fopen() etc.) is finite; if nothing else its upper bound is the number of distinct \0-terminated strings which can appear in the finite amount of addressable storage available. Since the only way to multiply a finite number by something and end-up with an infinity is for that something to be an infinity, there would need to be a C implementation which allows an infinite amount of data to be stored-to and retrieved-from a single file. I don't know of any, but I'd be happy to be introduced to one. In any case, it's largely irrelevant. They're as Turing-Complete as anything else. -- comp.lang.c.moderated - moderation address: clcm (AT) plethora (DOT) net -- you must have an appropriate newsgroups line in your header for your mail to be seen, or the newsgroup name in square brackets in the subject line. Sorry. Back to top WillerZ Guest Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 1:58 am    Post subject: Re: My Problem | What is right for ... Kenneth Brody wrote: Quote: WillerZ wrote: Oliver Wong wrote: [... C and C++ ...] Both languages are Turing Complete, meaning essentially any program you can write in one language, you could also write in the other. Actually, no implementation of either language is Turing Complete. A Turing Complete language is one which can simulate the operation of a turing machine. A Turing Machine has an infinitely long tape, and can therefore record an infinite number of things. In C or C++, everything can be addressed by a void *, and the size of a void * must be defined (CHAR_BIT * sizeof(void *) bits). Therefore any implementation of either language is limited to recording a finite number of things. Nothing says you can't use virtual memory. While it's true not there is no such thing as "infinite storage", you can have "arbitrarily large storage". As long as the hardware and O/S support it, you can use an arbitrarily large storage device, along with some "bignum" library to hold the data. The Turing Machine's capacity is unbounded, not arbitrarily large. Quote: Does a Turing machine really need inifite storage, or does it simply need to never hit either end of the "infinitely long" tape? Both branches of that or-question are the same so far as I can tell. The original Turing Machine is defined as having an infinitely-long tape with one end, at which it starts. It can move in either direction and read or write any element of its fixed alphabet to any slot on the tape. There are extended turing machines which have no ends, more dimensions, multiple moving heads, etc. It has been shown that these can emulate and be-emulated-by the basic unit, so equivalence to any of them is equivalence to all of them. All slots of the tape are initially blank. The output of a turing machine is the slots of the tape from the start up to the first blank. At each step, the machine reads the tape slot it's over, writes to that slot, and moves. A turing machine with the alphabet { 1, BLANK } might have the following program: If read BLANK: Write 1 Move away from the end This will never terminate. -- comp.lang.c.moderated - moderation address: clcm (AT) plethora (DOT) net -- you must have an appropriate newsgroups line in your header for your mail to be seen, or the newsgroup name in square brackets in the subject line. Sorry. Back to top Douglas A. Gwyn Guest Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 1:58 am    Post subject: Re: My Problem | What is right for ... "Kenneth Brody" <kenbrody (AT) spamcop (DOT) net> wrote in message news:clcm-20070423-0008 (AT) plethora (DOT) net... Quote: Does a Turing machine really need inifite storage, or does it simply need to never hit either end of the "infinitely long" tape? Six of one and a half dozen of the other. What is getting lost here is the real point, which that any sufficiently rich programming language can be used to accomplish any task that another language in the same class could. There can be considerable differences in practicality between "equivalent" languages, however. -- comp.lang.c.moderated - moderation address: clcm (AT) plethora (DOT) net -- you must have an appropriate newsgroups line in your header for your mail to be seen, or the newsgroup name in square brackets in the subject line. Sorry. Back to top Keith Thompson Guest Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 9:11 am    Post subject: Re: My Problem | What is right for ... "Oliver Wong" <owong (AT) castortech (DOT) com> writes: Quote: "Kenneth Brody" <kenbrody (AT) spamcop (DOT) net> wrote in message news:clcm-20070423-0008 (AT) plethora (DOT) net... [...] Does a Turing machine really need inifite storage, or does it simply need to never hit either end of the "infinitely long" tape? A TM needs infinite storage simply because you can't know ahead of time how much storage you need. A "well-formed" (my terminology, not sure what the official term is) TM will always terminate, and thus does not actually use an infinite amount of tape. But a "well-formed" TM is not allowed to report "Error: Ran out of tape", and the only way to satisfy that requirement is to have infinite tape. You need a potentially unbounded length of tape; the tape doesn't have to be infinite to begin with. Assuming a hardware implementation with real physical tape, the system can just respond to a "Ran out of tape" error by pausing the TM until more tape is spliced onto the end of the existing tape. Eventually, though, it could fail when you've converted the entire mass of the universe (except for the TM itself and its power supply) to tape. If the universe(s) turn out to be infinite, this won't be a problem. -- Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) kst-u (AT) mib (DOT) org <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst> San Diego Supercomputer Center <*> <http://users.sdsc.edu/~kst> "We must do something. This is something. Therefore, we must do this." -- Antony Jay and Jonathan Lynn, "Yes Minister" -- comp.lang.c.moderated - moderation address: clcm (AT) plethora (DOT) net -- you must have an appropriate newsgroups line in your header for your mail to be seen, or the newsgroup name in square brackets in the subject line. Sorry. Back to top Keith Thompson Guest Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 9:11 am    Post subject: Re: My Problem | What is right for ... WillerZ <newsreplies (AT) willerz (DOT) plus.net> writes: Quote: Keith Thompson wrote: WillerZ <newsreplies (AT) willerz (DOT) plus.net> writes: Oliver Wong wrote: Payam.Babaiy (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote in message news:clcm-20070416-0054 (AT) plethora (DOT) net... if c can fed me, i will learn c, or c++ is good ( with OO Suppot ) i will learn cpp, i dont want to for example learn cpp and when i need to write a porgram ( for example a web server ) i cant do it Both languages are Turing Complete, meaning essentially any program you can write in one language, you could also write in the other. Actually, no implementation of either language is Turing Complete. A Turing Complete language is one which can simulate the operation of a turing machine. A Turing Machine has an infinitely long tape, and can therefore record an infinite number of things. In C or C++, everything can be addressed by a void *, and the size of a void * must be defined (CHAR_BIT * sizeof(void *) bits). Therefore any implementation of either language is limited to recording a finite number of things. Files. The number of file names available to the standard file routines (fopen() etc.) is finite; if nothing else its upper bound is the number of distinct \0-terminated strings which can appear in the finite amount of addressable storage available. [...] Why do you need an infinite number of file names? I think all you need is *one* file name, as long as the named file is of unbounded size. Very large files will cause problems for fseek, ftell, fsetpos, and fgetpos, but that shouldn't matter for our purposes. -- Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) kst-u (AT) mib (DOT) org <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst> San Diego Supercomputer Center <*> <http://users.sdsc.edu/~kst> "We must do something. This is something. Therefore, we must do this." -- Antony Jay and Jonathan Lynn, "Yes Minister" -- comp.lang.c.moderated - moderation address: clcm (AT) plethora (DOT) net -- you must have an appropriate newsgroups line in your header for your mail to be seen, or the newsgroup name in square brackets in the subject line. Sorry. Back to top        C++Talk.NET Forum Index -> C Language (Moderated) All times are GMT Page 1 of 1 Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2006 phpBB Group