C++Talk.NET C++ language newsgroups   Archives   FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  Large-Scale C++ Software Design          C++Talk.NET Forum Index -> C++ Language (Moderated) View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message Guest Posted: Fri May 12, 2006 12:21 am    Post subject: Large-Scale C++ Software Design I've finally gotten around to reading the book "Large-Scale C++ Software Design" by John Lakos. Has anyone documented what parts of this book are now obsolete due to C++ language changes such as namespaces? or are now generally considered bad advice? Feel free to reply here on a particular topic discussed in the book. I also noticed that John Lakos has a book in preparation called "Scalable C++: Component-Based Development" maybe this is the much needed 2nd edition. thanks Mark [ See http://www.gotw.ca/resources/clcm.htm for info about ] [ comp.lang.c++.moderated. First time posters: Do this! ] Back to top Phlip Guest Posted: Fri May 12, 2006 4:21 am    Post subject: Re: Large-Scale C++ Software Design marktxx wrote: Quote: I've finally gotten around to reading the book "Large-Scale C++ Software Design" by John Lakos. Has anyone documented what parts of this book are now obsolete due to C++ language changes such as namespaces? Those recommendations were obsolete at the time the book was written. Quote: or are now generally considered bad advice? There's a good repository of bad advise here: http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?LargeScaleCppSoftwareDesign To read LSCSD, imagine incorporating each guideline into your own habits. Some, such as where to put #include lines, are brilliant, crucial, and easy. Some, such as unit tests, are mission critical but hard. Some, such as Registered Package Prefixes, are still generally valid but should not be slavishly applied. The book is still completely relevant because Lakos doesn't just say "do this", he explains his own research to arrive at each conclusion. Draw your own results, and question _everything_ you read. Even the stuff that keeps up with the Standard. Quote: I also noticed that John Lakos has a book in preparation called "Scalable C++: Component-Based Development" maybe this is the much needed 2nd edition. Maybe it will cover CORBA, which is an over-researched and under- documented component system that appears to have much potential. -- Phlip http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!! [ See http://www.gotw.ca/resources/clcm.htm for info about ] [ comp.lang.c++.moderated. First time posters: Do this! ] Back to top kanze Guest Posted: Sat May 13, 2006 1:21 am    Post subject: Re: Large-Scale C++ Software Design Phlip wrote: Quote: marktxx wrote: I've finally gotten around to reading the book "Large-Scale C++ Software Design" by John Lakos. Has anyone documented what parts of this book are now obsolete due to C++ language changes such as namespaces? Those recommendations were obsolete at the time the book was written. Are you kidding? At the time I first saw the book, none of the compilers I was using supported namespaces. Even today, I find that namespaces introduce so much additional confusion in things like function overloading (which isn't simple to begin with) that I tend to avoid them, except maybe at the highest level. (I'm glad that the standard library is in a namespace, for example.) Quote: or are now generally considered bad advice? There's a good repository of bad advise here: http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?LargeScaleCppSoftwareDesign I gave it a quick glance, but there didn't really seem to be much useful information there. (There were a lot of unjustified opinions, but nothing concrete.) Quote: To read LSCSD, imagine incorporating each guideline into your own habits. Some, such as where to put #include lines, are brilliant, crucial, and easy. Some, such as unit tests, are mission critical but hard. Some, such as Registered Package Prefixes, are still generally valid but should not be slavishly applied. The book is still completely relevant because Lakos doesn't just say "do this", he explains his own research to arrive at each conclusion. Draw your own results, and question _everything_ you read. Even the stuff that keeps up with the Standard. That sounds about like what I would say. All of the basic principles still apply. How you actually apply them in any given project will vary. Quote: I also noticed that John Lakos has a book in preparation called "Scalable C++: Component-Based Development" maybe this is the much needed 2nd edition. Maybe it will cover CORBA, which is an over-researched and under-documented component system that appears to have much potential. I agree. Corba seems to be almost moribond, but for most of the applications I see, it would be a far better solution than things like XML, which are being used because they are "in". -- James Kanze GABI Software Conseils en informatique orientée objet/ Beratung in objektorientierter Datenverarbeitung 9 place Sémard, 78210 St.-Cyr-l'École, France, +33 (0)1 30 23 00 34 [ See http://www.gotw.ca/resources/clcm.htm for info about ] [ comp.lang.c++.moderated. First time posters: Do this! ] Back to top Phlip Guest Posted: Sat May 13, 2006 12:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Large-Scale C++ Software Design kanze wrote: Quote: Are you kidding? No, I just didn't notice I was posting to the moderated group. Quote: At the time I first saw the book, none of the compilers I was using supported namespaces. Even today, I find that namespaces introduce so much additional confusion in things like function overloading (which isn't simple to begin with) that I tend to avoid them, except maybe at the highest level. (I'm glad that the standard library is in a namespace, for example.) The OP asked about what had become obsolete since. So maybe we agree that the advice about Registered Package Prefixes is as obsolete now as it was back then. Quote: http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?LargeScaleCppSoftwareDesign I gave it a quick glance, but there didn't really seem to be much useful information there. (There were a lot of unjustified opinions, but nothing concrete.) Feel free to edit it. The page - vaguely - attempts reveal the tension and debate between prefixes and namespaces, and the book's role in the debate. Of course this rapidly devolves to one "side" screaming the book is evil incarnate, and the other "side" trying to be rational. Quote: I agree. Corba seems to be almost moribond, but for most of the applications I see, it would be a far better solution than things like XML, which are being used because they are "in". I am currently learning CORBA Component Model, which might be worth all the acres of PDF devoted to how awesome it is... -- Phlip http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!! [ See http://www.gotw.ca/resources/clcm.htm for info about ] [ comp.lang.c++.moderated. First time posters: Do this! ] Back to top Francis Glassborow Guest Posted: Sat May 13, 2006 9:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Large-Scale C++ Software Design In article <1147437254.666508.7460 (AT) i39g2000cwa (DOT) googlegroups.com>, kanze <kanze@gabi-soft.fr> writes Quote: Some, such as Registered Package Prefixes, are still generally valid but should not be slavishly applied. The book is still completely relevant because Lakos doesn't just say "do this", he explains his own research to arrive at each conclusion. Draw your own results, and question _everything_ you read. Even the stuff that keeps up with the Standard. That sounds about like what I would say. All of the basic principles still apply. How you actually apply them in any given project will vary. And that was true from the moment the book was published. The importance of reading books such as this one is to educate ones thought processes, not to obtain a collection of recipes to be applied without thought or context. -- Francis Glassborow ACCU Author of 'You Can Do It!' see http://www.spellen.org/youcandoit For project ideas and contributions: http://www.spellen.org/youcandoit/projects [ See http://www.gotw.ca/resources/clcm.htm for info about ] [ comp.lang.c++.moderated. First time posters: Do this! ] Back to top Roland Pibinger Guest Posted: Sat May 13, 2006 9:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Large-Scale C++ Software Design On 11 May 2006 19:28:13 -0400, marktxx (AT) yahoo (DOT) com wrote: Quote: I also noticed that John Lakos has a book in preparation called "Scalable C++: Component-Based Development" maybe this is the much needed 2nd edition. You probably mean this: http://www.devconnections.com/shows/cppfall2005/default.asp?c=2&s=67&i=1655 .. BTW, are papers from http://www.devconnections.com/shows/CPPFall2005/default.asp?c=1&s=67 available online? Best regards, Roland Pibinger [ See http://www.gotw.ca/resources/clcm.htm for info about ] [ comp.lang.c++.moderated. First time posters: Do this! ] Back to top James Kanze Guest Posted: Sun May 14, 2006 9:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Large-Scale C++ Software Design Phlip wrote: Quote: kanze wrote: Are you kidding? No, I just didn't notice I was posting to the moderated group. At the time I first saw the book, none of the compilers I was using supported namespaces. Even today, I find that namespaces introduce so much additional confusion in things like function overloading (which isn't simple to begin with) that I tend to avoid them, except maybe at the highest level. (I'm glad that the standard library is in a namespace, for example.) The OP asked about what had become obsolete since. So maybe we agree that the advice about Registered Package Prefixes is as obsolete now as it was back then. It depends. Today, of course, you do have a choice, but I can imagine still using registered prefixes in many cases. Quote: http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?LargeScaleCppSoftwareDesign I gave it a quick glance, but there didn't really seem to be much useful information there. (There were a lot of unjustified opinions, but nothing concrete.) Feel free to edit it. The page - vaguely - attempts reveal the tension and debate between prefixes and namespaces, and the book's role in the debate. Of course this rapidly devolves to one "side" screaming the book is evil incarnate, and the other "side" trying to be rational. OK. I'd missed the fact that it was a Wiki, which automatically means that considerable sorting of the proposed information is necessary. (Quick glances, of course, tend to see those who talk loudest and longest. Which are seldom those who have useful information.) -- James Kanze kanze.james (AT) neuf (DOT) fr Conseils en informatique orientée objet/ Beratung in objektorientierter Datenverarbeitung 9 place Sémard, 78210 St.-Cyr-l'École, France +33 (0)1 30 23 00 34 [ See http://www.gotw.ca/resources/clcm.htm for info about ] [ comp.lang.c++.moderated. First time posters: Do this! ] Back to top Marco Guest Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 12:22 am    Post subject: Re: Large-Scale C++ Software Design Quote: I also noticed that John Lakos has a book in preparation called "Scalable C++: Component-Based Development" maybe this is the much needed 2nd edition. It's a shame when important computer books, that achieved good sales figures, never get much needed follow-on editions. It seems only Craig Larman, Bruce Eckel and the O'Reilly books do it in a timely fashion. Steve McConnell did finally update "Code Complete" but it would have been more valuable if he didn't take 11 years to do it. Wikis are interesting but too much unsupported opinion ends up in them so their credibility suffers. My fear is that computer information will devolve into the celebrity weekly tabloids we see in the supermarket. [ See http://www.gotw.ca/resources/clcm.htm for info about ] [ comp.lang.c++.moderated. First time posters: Do this! ] Back to top Francis Glassborow Guest Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 7:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Large-Scale C++ Software Design In article <1147561483.331631.291470 (AT) i40g2000cwc (DOT) googlegroups.com>, Marco <prenom_nomus (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> writes Quote: It's a shame when important computer books, that achieved good sales figures, never get much needed follow-on editions. It seems only Craig Larman, Bruce Eckel and the O'Reilly books do it in a timely fashion. Steve McConnell did finally update "Code Complete" but it would have been more valuable if he didn't take 11 years to do it. In the programming industry sales figures above 5000 count as good, above 10000 as very good. Much more than $2 per copy in royalties would be unusual in my experience. Considering the time it takes to write a book that is very poor reward for the author. I made more money a year writing a monthly column for .EXE Magazine than I do from my first book (whose UK sales figures alone exceed 5000), yet those columns took an afternoon a month to write. There are too many bad and mediocre books sucking up the resources of newcomers and too many 'experienced' programmers think that the post-novice books have nothing to offer them. Good authors need support else they find more rewarding ways to spend their time. -- Francis Glassborow ACCU Author of 'You Can Do It!'& 'You Can Program in C++' see http://www.spellen.org/youcandoit For project ideas and contributions: http://www.spellen.org/youcandoit/projects [ See http://www.gotw.ca/resources/clcm.htm for info about ] [ comp.lang.c++.moderated. First time posters: Do this! ] Back to top Phlip Guest Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 10:21 am    Post subject: Re: Large-Scale C++ Software Design Francis Glassborow wrote: Quote: Good authors need support else they find more rewarding ways to spend their time. They also may need supports other than money. (Insert rant here about the review process for technical books that cover C++, to keep us topical;) -- Phlip http://www.greencheese.us/ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!! [ See http://www.gotw.ca/resources/clcm.htm for info about ] [ comp.lang.c++.moderated. First time posters: Do this! ] Back to top John Wait Guest Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 10:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Large-Scale C++ Software Design I had the good fortune to be the editor for John Lakos' first book, as well as a few other C++ books such as Scott Meyers' gems, and first books by Tom Cargill, Steve Dewhurst, Kathy Stark, etc. I also had the good fortune to publish all of the first editions written by Rich Stevens, Evi Nemeth and others. And I was lucky to be the editor for Design Patterns, Gamma et al (c) 1995. While I spent years begging and nagging many authors to revise, let me now defend them. Many of the most successful authors are not full time writers. They are teachers, trainers, coders, sys admins, network managers, professors, researchers, or managers. Many wrote a book as a one-time let-me-help-by-sharing-what-I-know exercise. Many moved to new topics, such as from C++ to Java to Ruby on Rails. They were no longer working in the same subject and had little interest in revising a book on a technology she/he no longer used. Authors and editors regularly look forward to receiving comments for suggestions for improvements--updates/deletions/etc. Generally their email address is listed in the preface or acknowledgements of the book. Some Publishers list their editors on their web site, such as this: http://www.awprofessional.com/about/write_for_us.asp#editors If you like a book, and hope for an update, I encourage you to send your suggestions to the author of the book and/or the editor for the book. Best regards, John Wait Pearson Technology Group http://www.pearsoned.com/professional/technical.htm [ See http://www.gotw.ca/resources/clcm.htm for info about ] [ comp.lang.c++.moderated. First time posters: Do this! ] Back to top Simon Bone Guest Posted: Sat May 20, 2006 9:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Large-Scale C++ Software Design On Wed, 17 May 2006 18:11:07 -0400, John Wait wrote: Quote: I had the good fortune to be the editor for John Lakos' first book, as well as a few other C++ books such as Scott Meyers' gems, and first books by Tom Cargill, Steve Dewhurst, Kathy Stark, etc. I also had the good fortune to publish all of the first editions written by Rich Stevens, Evi Nemeth and others. And I was lucky to be the editor for Design Patterns, Gamma et al (c) 1995. While I spent years begging and nagging many authors to revise, let me now defend them. Many of the most successful authors are not full time writers. They are teachers, trainers, coders, sys admins, network managers, professors, researchers, or managers. Many wrote a book as a one-time let-me-help-by-sharing-what-I-know exercise. Many moved to new topics, such as from C++ to Java to Ruby on Rails. They were no longer working in the same subject and had little interest in revising a book on a technology she/he no longer used. First let me say that I appreciate that they do. I can't really imagine ever having the time and energy to add such a task on top of the day job. Secondly, I think it is important to accept that such writers do move on. Perhaps publishers should give more consideration to buying the rights to derivative works. Then if the original author moves on, some other poor sucker^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hwilling soul could be put on the task of providing an updated version. I notice that CC and GDL licensed books are appearing from some publishers, especially on topics that obviously relate to open source software. Those licenses have specific clauses on derivative works that may be a long term advantage. (And FWIW I like paper books, and so I've bought at least one.) Whatever the means, I do wish publishers would find a way to update popular books to fit current standards. There is not much worse than having to update the skills of co-workers who just read a new book- one they just bought, but which was written 10 years earlier. It is all too common unfortunately. Cheers, Simon Bone [ See http://www.gotw.ca/resources/clcm.htm for info about ] [ comp.lang.c++.moderated. First time posters: Do this! ] Back to top Marco Guest Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 11:21 am    Post subject: Re: Large-Scale C++ Software Design {This is really OT but it seems in the interest of the wider community to let it through but not for further discusssion here, please. -mod/fwg} John Wait wrote: Quote: While I spent years begging and nagging many authors to revise, let me now defend them. Many of the most successful authors are not full time writers. They are teachers, trainers, coders, sys admins, network managers, professors, researchers, or managers. Many wrote a book as a one-time let-me-help-by-sharing-what-I-know exercise. Many moved to new topics, such as from C++ to Java to Ruby on Rails. They were no longer working in the same subject and had little interest in revising a book on a technology she/he no longer used. I don't want to sound anti-author-rights but maybe after a period of say 5 years the publisher gets the right to locate another author to revise the next edition with the approval of the original author. Maybe the original author could be an editor. The original author would receive royalties (but just not as much) if he/she allowed their name to be listed. This would help keep books current. I noticed that O'Reilly appears to do something like this. [ See http://www.gotw.ca/resources/clcm.htm for info about ] [ comp.lang.c++.moderated. First time posters: Do this! ] Back to top Nicola Musatti Guest Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 4:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Large-Scale C++ Software Design Marco wrote: Quote: {This is really OT but it seems in the interest of the wider community to let it through but not for further discusssion here, please. -mod/fwg} John Wait wrote: [...] I don't want to sound anti-author-rights but maybe after a period of say 5 years the publisher gets the right to locate another author to revise the next edition with the approval of the original author. Maybe the original author could be an editor. The original author would receive royalties (but just not as much) if he/she allowed their name to be listed. This would help keep books current. I noticed that O'Reilly appears to do something like this. I don't think it's really a problem of rights, but one of expected sales. Consider "C++ Primer"; the first two editons were authored by Stan Lippmann, then Josee Lajoie joined him for the third one and Barbara Moo joined the team for the latest one. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the first two had little to do with the fourth edition. These things do happen when publishers consider them worthwhile. Cheers, Nicola Musatti [ See http://www.gotw.ca/resources/clcm.htm for info about ] [ comp.lang.c++.moderated. 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