C++Talk.NET C++ language newsgroups   Archives   FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  Java, C# replacing C++ as primary language for desktop devel Goto page 1, 2  Next          C++Talk.NET Forum Index -> C++ language (comp.lang.c++) View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message innominatetwice@yahoo.com Guest Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2005 8:28 pm    Post subject: Java, C# replacing C++ as primary language for desktop devel Hello, I'm not asking this to troll, I'm just genuinely interested in this question and I think that if I were to post it on a Java group that would be like asking the converted. Since C# has become Microsoft's flagship programming language, I'm wondering, does this mean that the sun is starting to set on C++ as the dominant language for, in particular, desktop development? Admittedly, I'm no expert in programming languages and the basis for my question could be inaccurate but this is the current picture of the situation as it looks to me. I think the reason for the shift from C++ to Java-like languages is that Java etc. provide a friendlier upgrade path to OOP for C developers whereas C++ is more encyclopedic and confusing. Thanks for your input, Back to top Pete Becker Guest Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2005 8:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Java, C# replacing C++ as primary language for desktop d [email]innominatetwice (AT) yahoo (DOT) com[/email] wrote: Quote: I think the reason for the shift from C++ to Java-like languages is that Java etc. provide a friendlier upgrade path to OOP for C developers whereas C++ is more encyclopedic and confusing. What shift is that? The one that Sun keeps telling you about? Be careful to distinguish between real data and marketing hype. Most of what you hear about Java is the latter. -- Pete Becker Dinkumware, Ltd. (http://www.dinkumware.com) Back to top Matthias Guest Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2005 9:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Java, C# replacing C++ as primary language for desktop d [email]innominatetwice (AT) yahoo (DOT) com[/email] wrote: Quote: Hello, I'm not asking this to troll, I'm just genuinely interested in this question and I think that if I were to post it on a Java group that would be like asking the converted. Since C# has become Microsoft's flagship programming language, I'm wondering, does this mean that the sun is starting to set on C++ as the dominant language for, in particular, desktop development? Admittedly, I'm no expert in programming languages and the basis for my question could be inaccurate but this is the current picture of the situation as it looks to me. I think the reason for the shift from C++ to Java-like languages is that Java etc. provide a friendlier upgrade path to OOP for C developers whereas C++ is more encyclopedic and confusing. Thanks for your input, Ask yourself, how many commercial Java or .NET applications have you seen so far? How many do you have installed on your computer? How many Jav or .NET applications do you use on a regular basis? If I browse my harddisk I have maybe one or two Java programs installed, none of which I use on a regular basis, because they're for most parts slow as hell. Hm, no .NET apps at all. The good part of the software I use is written in C, C++, Python or Object Pascal. In more or less this order. Sorry, I can't see the shift, can you? -- Regards, Matthias Back to top Keith P. Boruff Guest Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2005 10:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Java, C# replacing C++ as primary language for desktop d [email]innominatetwice (AT) yahoo (DOT) com[/email] wrote: Quote: Since C# has become Microsoft's flagship programming language, I'm wondering, does this mean that the sun is starting to set on C++ as the dominant language for, in particular, desktop development? I think "Flagship Microsoft" is starting to sink. But... that discussion is off-topic here. All I'll say is that when Microsoft puts out a crappy framework like MFC, it's easy for someone to not want to use C++. By desktop development, I'll assume you mean GUI apps. If you didn't mean that, you'll have to elaborate. That being said, check out Qt. It was written in C++ (probably binds to other languages too but I'm not sure). It's very good. From a *purist C++* standpoint, it isn't perfect but it's a heck of a lot better than MFC. I'm not a hardline C++ advocate but C# and Java certainly aren't good enough to pull me away from it permanently. There isn't a day that goes by that I cuss, whine, and whimper about C++. However, I always go back to it because it's capable of everything I need it to do. Keith Back to top Catrece Tahtinen Guest Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2005 10:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Java, C# replacing C++ as primary language for desktop d I have been looking for an application developer position using VisC++ lately and there is still lots of C++ jobs out there but it does seem that there are many who also would like for us to have C# (Visual C#) and .Net experience. I unfortunately don't have any of the C# or .NET stuff yet. Has anyone actually seen any trends towards employers wanting or requiring any type of Microsoft Certifications like MCAD or MCSD? These certifications use the Visual C# and .NET as well as SQL Server. I have been looking into upgrading my knowledge to include these certifications but I don't quite know if it is really necessary to certify? Anyone have any thoughts on this? Thanks, Catrece Back to top Ioannis Vranos Guest Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2005 10:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Java, C# replacing C++ as primary language for desktop d [email]innominatetwice (AT) yahoo (DOT) com[/email] wrote: Quote: Hello, I'm not asking this to troll, I'm just genuinely interested in this question and I think that if I were to post it on a Java group that would be like asking the converted. Since C# has become Microsoft's flagship programming language, I'm wondering, does this mean that the sun is starting to set on C++ as the dominant language for, in particular, desktop development? Admittedly, I'm no expert in programming languages and the basis for my question could be inaccurate but this is the current picture of the situation as it looks to me. I think the reason for the shift from C++ to Java-like languages is that Java etc. provide a friendlier upgrade path to OOP for C developers whereas C++ is more encyclopedic and confusing. It looks like you are missing facts. With the advent of VC++ 2005 and C++/CLI standard, C++ becomes the systems programming language of .NET. http://msdn.microsoft.com/msdnmag/issues/05/01/COptimizations/default.aspx http://pluralsight.com/blogs/hsutter/archive/2004/10/05/2672.aspx http://blogs.msdn.com/branbray/archive/2003/11/07/51007.aspx [url]http://www.accu.org/conference/presentations/Sutter_-_Is_C++_Relevant_on_Modern_Environments_(keynote).pdf[/url] And a page of mine: http://www23.brinkster.com/noicys/cppcli.htm This subject has been brought up many times in clc++, over and over again. Everyone please check groups.google.com before bringing this subject over and over again. -- Ioannis Vranos http://www23.brinkster.com/noicys Back to top Ioannis Vranos Guest Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2005 10:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Java, C# replacing C++ as primary language for desktop d Matthias wrote: Quote: Ask yourself, how many commercial Java or .NET applications have you seen so far? Actually, regarding .NET, there are many ones that use it today. Especially with the ability of C++ to mix managed and unmanaged code, I think many are extending their existing applications by using the high level .NET library than using the old ones. Quote: How many do you have installed on your computer? How many Jav or .NET applications do you use on a regular basis? If I browse my harddisk I have maybe one or two Java programs installed, none of which I use on a regular basis, because they're for most parts slow as hell. Hm, no .NET apps at all. The good part of the software I use is written in C, C++, Python or Object Pascal. In more or less this order. Sorry, I can't see the shift, can you? WinFX, the API that replaces Win32 in Longhorn era is entirely managed. More accurately, .NET is the portable part of WinFX across the older than Longhorn platforms. -- Ioannis Vranos http://www23.brinkster.com/noicys Back to top Catrece Tahtinen Guest Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2005 11:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Java, C# replacing C++ as primary language for desktop d I wasn't asking anything about which is better C++ or C#. I was trying to find out if it is even necessary to get any type of Certifications from Microsoft in the programming areas. I have been a C++ Developer for 10 years and I know it very well. I just haven't spent anytime looking into the C# or .NET stuff since my work doesn't involve it in any way. I have been doing contracting for very large companies doing very complex large database applications where it has to be very fast and efficient so I know the importance of using C++. I have not spent anytime of this website since I just found it today, so sorry for any reiteration that has occurred here. I am not one that has lots of time right now. The articles were interesting, and the "There is no language lower than C++" one in particular had alot of references about C++ programmers that I identified with totally. Per this article, it seems that learning C# may be a waste of time. I cherish my time and try to use it on things that I will benifit from in the future (learning wise). Would you concur? regards, Catrece Back to top Ioannis Vranos Guest Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 12:05 am    Post subject: Re: Java, C# replacing C++ as primary language for desktop d Catrece Tahtinen wrote: Quote: I wasn't asking anything about which is better C++ or C#. I think I did not answer to your message. Quote: I was trying to find out if it is even necessary to get any type of Certifications from Microsoft in the programming areas. I have been a C++ Developer for 10 years and I know it very well. I just haven't spent anytime looking into the C# or .NET stuff since my work doesn't involve it in any way. C# is another language anyway. Regarding .NET programming with C++, a nice book to check is "Visual C++ .NET How To Program" by Deitel. http://vig.prenhall.com/catalog/academic/product/0,1144,0134373774,00.html About certifications, I think it does not harm to have as many as you can. Quote: I have been doing contracting for very large companies doing very complex large database applications where it has to be very fast and efficient so I know the importance of using C++. I have not spent anytime of this website Hmm, actually here it is Usenet and you are probably posting via some web site which I can guess does not present discussion threads very well. Better find some newsreader that supports NNTP (Outlook Express is one), and use the Usenet newsgroup server of your ISP to participate in discussions. This newsgroup is comp.lang.c++. A far better email/newsgroups client than Outlook Express is Mozilla Thunderbird: http://www.mozilla.org/products/thunderbird Quote: since I just found it today, so sorry for any reiteration that has occurred here. I am not one that has lots of time right now. The articles were interesting, and the "There is no language lower than C++" one in particular had alot of references about C++ programmers that I identified with totally. Per this article, it seems that learning C# may be a waste of time. I cherish my time and try to use it on things that I will benifit from in the future (learning wise). C#/CLI (which is its actual name) does not offer anything more than C++/CLI but in fact it offers less. I guess the question is the same regarding learning VB .NET if you already know C++. Keep in mind that all VC#, VC++, and VB .NET share the same RAD in VS 2003. -- Ioannis Vranos http://www23.brinkster.com/noicys Back to top Walter Guest Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 12:11 am    Post subject: Re: Java, C# replacing C++ as primary language for desktop d "Catrece Tahtinen" <catrecet (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> wrote Quote: I have been a C++ Developer for 10 years and I know it very well. [...] Per this article, it seems that learning C# may be a waste of time. I cherish my time and try to use it on things that I will benifit from in the future (learning wise). With 10 years C++ experience under your belt, I doubt you'd find it would take very much time to learn C# at all. Learning the basics of C#, D, and Java is worthwhile for C++ programmers, even if just for the perspective it gives. -Walter www.digitalmars.com C, C++, D compilers Back to top Peter van der Goes Guest Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 12:33 am    Post subject: Re: Java, C# replacing C++ as primary language for desktop d <innominatetwice (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> wrote Quote: Hello, I'm not asking this to troll, I'm just genuinely interested in this question and I think that if I were to post it on a Java group that would be like asking the converted. Since C# has become Microsoft's flagship programming language, I'm wondering, does this mean that the sun is starting to set on C++ as the dominant language for, in particular, desktop development? Admittedly, I'm no expert in programming languages and the basis for my question could be inaccurate but this is the current picture of the situation as it looks to me. I think the reason for the shift from C++ to Java-like languages is that Java etc. provide a friendlier upgrade path to OOP for C developers whereas C++ is more encyclopedic and confusing. Thanks for your input, Don't know where you get that C# is the flagship. AAMF, more emphasis is being placed on C++ in Visual Studio 2005 and subsequent VS releases. C++ more encyclopedic? Have you seen the latest Java API? Back to top Ioannis Vranos Guest Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 2:31 am    Post subject: Re: Java, C# replacing C++ as primary language for desktop d Walter wrote: Quote: With 10 years C++ experience under your belt, I doubt you'd find it would take very much time to learn C# at all. Learning the basics of C#, D, and Java is worthwhile for C++ programmers, even if just for the perspective it gives. Well I would recommend to wait at least for the upcoming C#/CLI 2, which supports run-time generics (supported in C++/CLI with the keyword generic in the place of the keyword template, but are more restricted than compile-time templates, and templates are also available for C++ managed code producing 100% verifiable code). If he/she wants to learn C# after all. What I would find to make more sense is learning IL assembly: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0735615470/qid=1091414100/sr=1-7/ref=sr_1_7/102-2992266-3703320?v=glance&s=books CLI assembly language is defined in the freely available CLI standard, so you can view in the specification how it looks like: http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/standards/Ecma-335.htm The interesting part is that it is enough high-level and has the concept of classes and objects. And by the way, the latest draft of the upcoming C++/CLI standard: http://www.plumhall.com/C++-CLI%20draft%201.8.pdf -- Ioannis Vranos http://www23.brinkster.com/noicys Back to top Keith P. Boruff Guest Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 3:03 am    Post subject: Re: Java, C# replacing C++ as primary language for desktop d Yes... I'm top posting. You know? I was thouroughly a**-f**ked for mentioning a gcc compiler switch here once by.. who was that clown? Wahler? Walter? What makes this stuff on-topic? Thanks, Keith Ioannis Vranos wrote: Quote: innominatetwice (AT) yahoo (DOT) com wrote: Hello, I'm not asking this to troll, I'm just genuinely interested in this question and I think that if I were to post it on a Java group that would be like asking the converted. Since C# has become Microsoft's flagship programming language, I'm wondering, does this mean that the sun is starting to set on C++ as the dominant language for, in particular, desktop development? Admittedly, I'm no expert in programming languages and the basis for my question could be inaccurate but this is the current picture of the situation as it looks to me. I think the reason for the shift from C++ to Java-like languages is that Java etc. provide a friendlier upgrade path to OOP for C developers whereas C++ is more encyclopedic and confusing. It looks like you are missing facts. With the advent of VC++ 2005 and C++/CLI standard, C++ becomes the systems programming language of .NET. http://msdn.microsoft.com/msdnmag/issues/05/01/COptimizations/default.aspx http://pluralsight.com/blogs/hsutter/archive/2004/10/05/2672.aspx http://blogs.msdn.com/branbray/archive/2003/11/07/51007.aspx [url]http://www.accu.org/conference/presentations/Sutter_-_Is_C++_Relevant_on_Modern_Environments_(keynote).pdf[/url] And a page of mine: http://www23.brinkster.com/noicys/cppcli.htm This subject has been brought up many times in clc++, over and over again. Everyone please check groups.google.com before bringing this subject over and over again. Back to top Ioannis Vranos Guest Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 3:54 am    Post subject: Re: Java, C# replacing C++ as primary language for desktop d Keith P. Boruff wrote: Quote: What makes this stuff on-topic? It is a comparison of C++ vs some other languages, strictly speaking it may be off topic. I am not sure though. -- Ioannis Vranos http://www23.brinkster.com/noicys Back to top ExpatEgghead Guest Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 6:09 am    Post subject: Re: Java, C# replacing C++ as primary language for desktop d Peter van der Goes wrote: Quote: innominatetwice (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> wrote in message news:1108240130.397383.266000 (AT) c13g2000cwb (DOT) googlegroups.com... snip Thanks for your input, Don't know where you get that C# is the flagship. AAMF, more emphasis is being placed on C++ in Visual Studio 2005 and subsequent VS releases. C++ more encyclopedic? Have you seen the latest Java API? No. And I don't want to. ~shudder~ Adrian Edmonds Back to top Display posts from previous: All Posts1 Day7 Days2 Weeks1 Month3 Months6 Months1 Year Oldest FirstNewest First         C++Talk.NET Forum Index -> C++ language (comp.lang.c++) All times are GMT Goto page 1, 2  Next Page 1 of 2   Jump to: Select a forum C/C++----------------C LanguageC Language (Moderated)C++ Language (Moderated)C++ language (comp.lang.c++)C++ language, library and standards Non-English C/C++ Newsgroups----------------C++ (German)C++ (French)  You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2006 phpBB Group SEO toolkit © 2004-2006 webmedic.