C++Talk.NET C++ language newsgroups   Archives   FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  Employer looking 4 online C++ aptitude tests; recommendation Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next          C++Talk.NET Forum Index -> C++ Language (Moderated) View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message Matt Guest Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 11:18 pm    Post subject: Employer looking 4 online C++ aptitude tests; recommendation Hello, I'm a hiring C++ developer employer looking for existing, online C++ aptitude tests. I have not yet extensively researched this yet, but as an example, I thought this test looked pretty good: http://expertrating.com/c++test.asp I'm curious if anyone can offer any other recommendations? If so, could you please offer your experience with your recommended resource and why you recommend them...or might recommend others? Fyi, My philosophy falls in line with this post: http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.c++.moderated/msg/f840d9074af466c1 -Matt -- Remove the "downwithspammers-" text to email me. [ See http://www.gotw.ca/resources/clcm.htm for info about ] [ comp.lang.c++.moderated. First time posters: Do this! ] Back to top Mark Guest Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2005 1:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Employer looking 4 online C++ aptitude tests; recommenda my opinion on this is that , if you are looking for the best staff, a simple C/C++ test is not enough. You should create your own based on your own requirements / what you think is important for a programmer to know. The best test I was ever given was to be sat in a room in front of an (unfamiliar) C compiler and given an hour to write a program to read in a proprietary file containing graphics shapes and draw it to the screen. I did'nt quite finish the exercise, but it showed them what they needed to know. Could I code, and what was approach to solving the problem re: design. I consider myself an intermediate C++ programmer, I still get caught out by syntactic sugar , the sort of thing a C++ tests are designed around but I don't consider myself any less a programmer for it. Hope this helps. Mark "Matt" <matt (AT) downwithspammers-mengland (DOT) net> wrote Quote: Hello, I'm a hiring C++ developer employer looking for existing, online C++ aptitude tests. I have not yet extensively researched this yet, but as an example, I thought this test looked pretty good: http://expertrating.com/c++test.asp I'm curious if anyone can offer any other recommendations? If so, could you please offer your experience with your recommended resource and why you recommend them...or might recommend others? Fyi, My philosophy falls in line with this post: http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.c++.moderated/msg/f840d9074af466c1 [ See http://www.gotw.ca/resources/clcm.htm for info about ] [ comp.lang.c++.moderated. First time posters: Do this! ] Back to top Jerry Coffin Guest Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2005 1:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Employer looking 4 online C++ aptitude tests; recommenda Matt wrote: [ ... ] Quote: I have not yet extensively researched this yet, but as an example, I thought this test looked pretty good: http://expertrating.com/c++test.asp It's not particularly great. I probably shouldn't have wasted my money on it, but I decided to look at it, and noticed questions like this: -> Question: -> State which of the following are true: -> -> a. You can use a goto statement to jump into a __try statement block -> or a __finally statement block -> b. You can nest an exception handler or termination handler inside a -> __finally block -> c. You can use a goto statement to jump out of a __try statement -> block or a __finally statement block -> d. All of the above are false This was supposed to be a test about C++, wasn't it? Where did this nonsense about __try and __finally come from? WRT to C++, even D isn't really correct, because none of them really qualifies as truly true or false, but merely irrelevant. Even if the question were rephrased to deal with C++, it's still downright stupid anyway! Given a limited number of questions, which subject should be included: goto or (for example) partial specialization? As another example: -> Consider the sample code given below and answer the question: -> -> class A{ -> public: -> A() {} -> ~A(){ cout << "in destructor" << endl;} -> }; -> -> void main(){ -> A a; -> a.~A(); -> } -> -> How many times will the destructor be called in the above code? -> a. 0 -> b. 1 -> c. 2 -> d. There is an error because destructors cannot be called directly I suppose they probably want C -- but they're wrong. The correct answer is that the code has undefined behavior. Nothing more and nothing less -- any arbitrarily chosen result is equally correct for this input. D is wrong, because explicit dtor invocation is allowed, and sometimes even useful (usually in conjunction with placement new). Yet another question asks: -> Base class members are made public for a derived class and private -> for rest of the program by: Well, there simply is no such thing -- presumably they're trying to refer to "protected", but protected doesn't make anything public or private. Rather, it makes the it accessible or inaccessible. I won't belabor the point, though this certainly isn't a complete list of even the obvious errors. The bottom line is that while I've seen worse, this test is still sadly inaccurate. I'll admit that writing a good test (i.e. selecting questions whose answers really _mean_ something) is difficult. If you settle for testing stupid things, writing the test should be easy, but they've managed to get even that wrong! Oh well, I guess I'll get off my soapbox and return you to your regularly scheduled flaming... -- Later, Jerry. The universe is a figment of its own imagination. [ See http://www.gotw.ca/resources/clcm.htm for info about ] [ comp.lang.c++.moderated. First time posters: Do this! ] Back to top Laurence Finston Guest Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2005 9:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Employer looking 4 online C++ aptitude tests; recommenda On Wed, 18 Jan 2005, Matt wrote: Quote: I'm a hiring C++ developer employer looking for existing, online C++ aptitude tests. I'm a programmer (C, C++, and LISP) looking for work, and I refuse to take tests. After my last job I took the time to write a package and publish it. I use this to demonstrate my ability to program in C++. (No one seems to care about C anymore, except for embedded applications, and nobody seems to care about LISP anymore at all, more's the pity.) The problem is, there are things that are easy to test, but have no value for actual programming in real life. For example, I haven't memorized the rules governing the priority of operators. I know some rules just by using operators all the time, but the compiler doesn't care if I put in parentheses if I'm unsure. It also makes my code more readable for people who haven't memorized the rules, either. A couple of tests potential employers gave me for C involved expansion of preprocessor macros. Using inscrutable preprocessor macro constructions in programs is about the most stupid programming technique I can think of. But it's easy to test. It's also an easy way to make someone fall on his or her face, which is what happened. I don't carry the language definitions of C and C++ or the calling conventions of all of the functions in the STL around in my head. I don't think it would make me a better programmer if I did. I know the things I use often and I can look the others up. If you ask me about something I don't use a lot, it's quite possible I won't know the answer. I applied for a job recently and was asked to learn how to use that company's software and write a short program for some purpose! I think I can use my time better by applying to other companies. By the same token, I never fill out companies' "special on-line application forms". I hope I find a company that's willing to take the trouble to evaluate my work instead of making a decision based on a somewhat arbitrary test. And any test will be somewhat arbitrary. Laurence Finston [ See http://www.gotw.ca/resources/clcm.htm for info about ] [ comp.lang.c++.moderated. First time posters: Do this! ] Back to top Gernot Frisch Guest Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2005 9:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Employer looking 4 online C++ aptitude tests; recommenda Quote: -> a. You can use a goto statement to jump into a __try statement block -> or a __finally statement block -> b. You can nest an exception handler or termination handler inside a -> __finally block -> c. You can use a goto statement to jump out of a __try statement -> block or a __finally statement block -> d. All of the above are false This was supposed to be a test about C++, wasn't it? Where did this nonsense about __try and __finally come from? WRT to C++, even D isn't really correct, because none of them really qualifies as truly true or false, but merely irrelevant. Even if the question were rephrased to deal with C++, it's still downright stupid anyway! Given a limited number of questions, which subject should be included: goto or (for example) partial specialization? I don't understand this: can you do: goto a; __try { } __catch(...) { a: goto c; } __finally { __try { } __catch(...) { } goto c; } c: ; Quote: -> class A{ -> public: -> A() {} -> ~A(){ cout << "in destructor" << endl;} -> }; - -> void main(){ -> A a; -> a.~A(); -> } I suppose they probably want C -- but they're wrong. The correct answer is that the code has undefined behavior. Why? Is it not allowed to call the d'tor explicitly for an object not created with 'new'? But I agree, stupid tests questioning C++ do not help getting you a good employee. Main intererst should be: how does he/she approach new problems, what's the coding style, what if something does not work? I'd let them hand in a nice 100 line source project and explain what it does. From a code listing of someone you can get a very good implression of what he/she's like. Maybe you'd better make sure you're watching while the code get's written, so there's no danger of cheating. -Gernot [ See http://www.gotw.ca/resources/clcm.htm for info about ] [ comp.lang.c++.moderated. First time posters: Do this! ] Back to top Joseph Turian Guest Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2005 11:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Employer looking 4 online C++ aptitude tests; recommenda Why do you need an online aptitude test? Couldn't you design some interview questions that are a much better at detecting the skillset you are looking for in an employee? [ See http://www.gotw.ca/resources/clcm.htm for info about ] [ comp.lang.c++.moderated. First time posters: Do this! ] Back to top KCs Guest Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2005 11:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Employer looking 4 online C++ aptitude tests; recommenda I think that it isn't very fortunate to hire programmers testing their knowledge of a specific language. A better approach is to test their algorithmic skills, their thinking. A language is just a tool and it's usage can be learned quite fast. [ See http://www.gotw.ca/resources/clcm.htm for info about ] [ comp.lang.c++.moderated. First time posters: Do this! ] Back to top Francis Glassborow Guest Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2005 11:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Employer looking 4 online C++ aptitude tests; recommenda In article <1106099477.769427.159340 (AT) f14g2000cwb (DOT) googlegroups.com>, Jerry Coffin <jcoffin (AT) taeus (DOT) com> writes Quote: -> Consider the sample code given below and answer the question: - -> class A{ -> public: -> A() {} -> ~A(){ cout << "in destructor" << endl;} -> }; - -> void main(){ -> A a; -> a.~A(); -> } - -> How many times will the destructor be called in the above code? -> a. 0 -> b. 1 -> c. 2 -> d. There is an error because destructors cannot be called directly I suppose they probably want C -- but they're wrong. The correct answer is that the code has undefined behavior. It has undefined behaviour before it tries to call a dtor (it has the wrong return type for main(). This kind of thing says far more about the testers than it does about the tested. If the examples you give are in anyway typical I would want my money back because they claim that every question has at least one correct answer, that claim is demonstrably false. -- Francis Glassborow ACCU Author of 'You Can Do It!' see http://www.spellen.org/youcandoit For project ideas and contributions: http://www.spellen.org/youcandoit/projects [ See http://www.gotw.ca/resources/clcm.htm for info about ] [ comp.lang.c++.moderated. First time posters: Do this! ] Back to top Andrew Peter Marlow Guest Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2005 11:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Employer looking 4 online C++ aptitude tests; recommenda On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 18:18:16 -0500, Matt wrote: Quote: I'm a hiring C++ developer employer looking for existing, online C++ aptitude tests. brainBench seems quite good to me. It draws from a very large database, making it harder for agents to cheat, and although it is multiple-choice the choices have subtle differences. Also the responses have a time limit. [ See http://www.gotw.ca/resources/clcm.htm for info about ] [ comp.lang.c++.moderated. First time posters: Do this! ] Back to top Carlos Moreno Guest Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2005 11:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Employer looking 4 online C++ aptitude tests; recommenda Jerry Coffin wrote: Quote: -> Question: -> State which of the following are true: - -> a. You can use a goto statement to jump into a __try statement block -> or a __finally statement block -> b. You can nest an exception handler or termination handler inside a -> __finally block -> c. You can use a goto statement to jump out of a __try statement -> block or a __finally statement block -> d. All of the above are false This was supposed to be a test about C++, wasn't it? Where did this nonsense about __try and __finally come from? WRT to C++, even D isn't really correct, because none of them really qualifies as truly true or false, but merely irrelevant. Actually, d) is correct, IMHO -- If there is no such thing as a __try statement block in C++, then a statement that says you can do whatever thing into a __try statement block is false: it is false because there is no such thing as a __try block, and therefore NO, you can NOT use a goto to jump into a __try block. (same reasoning applies to the other two) The sad reality is, I would bet one year's salary that according to them, d) is NOT the correct answer... :-( Quote: Even if the question were rephrased to deal with C++, it's still downright stupid anyway! Given a limited number of questions, which subject should be included: goto or (for example) partial specialization? 150% agree with that! Quote: -> void main(){ -> A a; -> a.~A(); -> } - -> How many times will the destructor be called in the above code? -> a. 0 -> b. 1 -> c. 2 -> d. There is an error because destructors cannot be called directly I suppose they probably want C -- but they're wrong. Not to mention that beautiful void main()... Cheers, Carlos -- [ See http://www.gotw.ca/resources/clcm.htm for info about ] [ comp.lang.c++.moderated. First time posters: Do this! ] Back to top Hyman Rosen Guest Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2005 11:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Employer looking 4 online C++ aptitude tests; recommenda Gernot Frisch wrote: Quote: I don't understand this: can you do: goto a; __try {... C++ does not contain constructs named __try, __catch, or __finally, so it makes no sense for a claimed C++ test to ask about them. Quote: -> void main(){ A a; a.~A(); } Why? Is it not allowed to call the d'tor explicitly for an object not created with 'new'? It is undefined behavior to cause a d'tor to be called more than once on an object. A program which executes undefined behavior, as this one does, has no required behavior according to the standard. Therefore none of the choices is correct. [ See http://www.gotw.ca/resources/clcm.htm for info about ] [ comp.lang.c++.moderated. First time posters: Do this! ] Back to top Maciej Sobczak Guest Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2005 11:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Employer looking 4 online C++ aptitude tests; recommenda Hi, Matt wrote: Quote: I'm curious if anyone can offer any other recommendations? I may be biased, but this served me well (I'm on the other side): http://www.brainbench.com/ (click around patiently to dig out the C++ test) As for the C++ test itself, it is rather focused on syntax issues instead of idioms and techniques, so don't rely on a *single* test to select your candidates. If you can combine such tests with *other* ways of assessing candidates, then those tests can certainly help you. -- Maciej Sobczak : http://www.msobczak.com/ Programming : http://www.msobczak.com/prog/ [ See http://www.gotw.ca/resources/clcm.htm for info about ] [ comp.lang.c++.moderated. First time posters: Do this! ] Back to top Ivan Vecerina Guest Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2005 11:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Employer looking 4 online C++ aptitude tests; recommenda "Matt" <matt (AT) downwithspammers-mengland (DOT) net> wrote Quote: I'm a hiring C++ developer employer looking for existing, online C++ aptitude tests. I have not yet extensively researched this yet, but as an example, I thought this test looked pretty good: http://expertrating.com/c++test.asp I've never tried this one. An alternative I am familiar with is available at www.brainbench.com. Quote: I'm curious if anyone can offer any other recommendations? If so, could you please offer your experience with your recommended resource and why you recommend them...or might recommend others? I cannot rate the expertrating test, so I can't compare. Personally, I'd probably not be fully satisfied with the coverage or quality of either test. Quote: Fyi, My philosophy falls in line with this post: http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.c++.moderated/msg/f840d9074af466c1 I agree, but keep in mind that these multiple-choice online tests have a limited scope. They can test for knowledge of the language, but not coding quality, proficiency, etc. I'd say that being able to pass the test can be a necessary condition (i.e. for screening), but not sufficient (to my hiring standards). As part of the interview process, I will go further and give an actual coding assignment. A company I worked for had a standardized assignments, asking candidates to maintain and evolve an initial program through multiple iterations of requirements. When properly reviewed by a competent senior developer, I find that the result of such a test will give you much better insight -- and feel less deprecatory to the candidate. I hope this helps, Ivan -- http://ivan.vecerina.com/contact/?subject=NG_POST <- email contact form Brainbench MVP for C++ <> http://www.brainbench.com Full disclosure: I'm not affiliated with Brainbench other than for having free access to their tests and online materials in exchange of reviewing some of their test questions and posting this occasional link. [ See http://www.gotw.ca/resources/clcm.htm for info about ] [ comp.lang.c++.moderated. First time posters: Do this! ] Back to top jakacki Guest Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2005 12:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Employer looking 4 online C++ aptitude tests; recommenda Quote: Im a hiring C++ developer employer looking for existing, online C++ aptitude tests. www.brainbench.com seems reasonable. Having said that, I am very skeptical to hiring based on multiple-choice test. When I am hiring I use tailored tests focused on problem solving, with programming-related questions generally having the form of "critique this code" and "solve this problem using your favorite programming language". We also rely on giving candidates programming homeworks, which they later defend. HTH Grzegorz Free C++ frontend library: http://opencxx.sourceforge.net China from the inside: http://www.staryhutong.com Myself: http://www.dziupla.net/gj/cv [ See http://www.gotw.ca/resources/clcm.htm for info about ] [ comp.lang.c++.moderated. First time posters: Do this! ] Back to top Matt Guest Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2005 12:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Employer looking 4 online C++ aptitude tests; recommenda Hello Ivan, I very much agree with your comments below. Quote: As part of the interview process, I will go further and give an actual coding assignment. A company I worked for had a standardized assignments, asking candidates to maintain and evolve an initial program through multiple iterations of requirements. I find this in particular to be an excellent idea. Unfortunately, my current environment (the very early stages of a startup company) is prohibiting me from spending much time on test development. I may attempt to develop and use such a mechanism in the future. Alternatively, if anyone can refer me to existing, already-developed mechanisms like this one (the changing-requirements stuff is particularly useful), I would love to see it. I suppose I could draw from past projects (...but I can't find them anywhere...I did my C++ work a *long* time ago) or look through a couple of my favorite books...although I'd be concerned with plagiarism for the latter. -Matt -- Remove the "downwithspammers-" text to email me. [ See http://www.gotw.ca/resources/clcm.htm for info about ] [ comp.lang.c++.moderated. 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