C++Talk.NET C++ language newsgroups   Archives   FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  how to program in C++ efficiently with a popular editor/comp          C++Talk.NET Forum Index -> C++ Language (Moderated) View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message Mingsheng Guest Posted: Sun Dec 26, 2004 6:55 pm    Post subject: how to program in C++ efficiently with a popular editor/comp Hi, I have a few non-technical related thoughts/questions here. I would really appreciate it if people will have a read and contribute some ideas here. Please also kindly point out any error in my statement, due to my limited knowledge in C/C++. Generally, I am curious of how an expert write/browse C/C++ code. Regarding reference tool usage, a few days ago I posted an article here asking how to efficiently look up C++ documentation in Linux (titled "Linux C++ Documentation"), and got a bunch of interesting answers that can be potentially applied to other platforms as well. Among them there is an impressive one where the author wrote a program to look up the local man pages, and then the web (SGI web site, etc) if there is nothing matching in the former place. This approach sounds sophisticated and I am sure is very effective, but similar to customizing .emacs, seems I always tend to spend more time customizing my environment, such that I am actually not that productive in doing real job. Well, one might argue this is hopefully a one-time thing, and given that some operating systems like Unix/Linux is robust enough, hopefully the setting on one's own computer can last for a few years. Such property does not always hold for the hardware environment, though -- It unfortunately occurred to me a few days ago that my Dell laptop crashed and I have to reinstall Linux from scratch (the old partition was not recognized by Linux rescue disk at all). Then I lost all my customization.. Do people backup those customized settings (such as the hand-written program, .emacs file, etc) on a regular basis, or it is a more effective way to share what people have done in the C++ programming community? (in my opinion, for example, a general tool to look up C++ documentation on the web, given that the corresponding gcc man pages are missing, is invaluable.) Another thought is brought along by another reply that reminded me many system/application programmers probably still prefer pure C. Well, isn't it that C++ is a lot easier to use (such as I/O facility, string manipulations)? One might argue that some C++ features are too expensive and might be an overkill for a performance-critical application, but I believe a real C++ expert definitely can get the best out of C and C++ without falling into those C++ performance traps. Using C++ wisely, the application can even out-perform the C counterpart (for example, C++ supports delayed declaration of variables, and therefore might save more memory resource). Am I right here? Another question regarding the C++ programming environment (I am using emacs+gcc). Since I am so used to the Visual C++ IDE, there are still two features there that I miss a lot, and am curious of how to achieve in other platforms. One feature is the tight integration with MSDN, such that it supports instant online help for any C/C++ reference materials (when the user moves the cursor to the right word in the source code, and then presses F1). The desire for similar feature in another programming platform motivated my previous post in this group. Though I guess I was not able to set up this feature directly from the replies, I do appreciate people's suggestions and ideas on this issue. Another feature, which I am really curious because I found it really handy, but I suspect whether guru ever uses it, is the so called "intelli-sense" feature in VC. Basically, what it does it that whenever the user types a class variable name (or pointer to a class) followed by a DOT "." (or the pointer "->" syntax construct), a list of member variables/functions immediately pop up in the editor for the user to select which one is right to use here. This is handy especially when the members have long names. Is it common or easy to simulate in other platforms? I searched the web for a while to see, for example, how to simulate this feature in Emacs, and the closest solution I found is by using semantic/senator/speedbar utilities in emacs ([url]http://cedet.sourceforge.net/semantic.shtml)[/url]. There is a specific discussion on how to achieve this ([url]http://cedet.sourceforge.net/intellisense.shtml)[/url], but I do not feel the result so satisfactory, since the pop-up list is in another window (the speedbar window), and the speed is not fast enough (1 to 2 seconds delay for each invocation is not too good). Do expert C/C++ programmers tend to remember all (most) of the members, and type so fast such that this feature is not necessary? When they write code, do they have a few editor windows (in emacs term: frames) floating around on the screen, so that when they want to look up the member names, they switch from the current window to the window containing the class header file (by pressing some key like Alt+Tab), or do they usually have only one editor window/frame opening (in some environment without X support, this is probably the only way?), and constantly switch between buffers (in emacs, achieved by C-x C-b)? BTW, I would really appreciate it if people could offer some tips on how to effectively program in emacs. I have studied a few materials on this topic, such as the emacs manual (including the C-related major mode), but all of them are like reference manuals, instead of hands-on guide for how to write/browse code efficiently. Regarding browsing source code, right now I usually use etags to first generate a single TAGS file for all the .c.h.cpp files in the project, and then in emacs use Alt+. to jump to the definition of any functions/variables. I feel it is still not as good as browsing the code in Visual C++ environment, where all the windows are nicely organized, and it usually jumps to the right definition even when function overloading is usually (for emacs, the etags is probably confused by functions with the same names and similar signatures). Is there any better way to browse the source code? Happy new year everyone! Mingsheng [ See http://www.gotw.ca/resources/clcm.htm for info about ] [ comp.lang.c++.moderated. First time posters: Do this! ] Back to top ox Guest Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 10:31 am    Post subject: Re: how to program in C++ efficiently with a popular editor/ You might want to consider www.eclipse.org. [ See http://www.gotw.ca/resources/clcm.htm for info about ] [ comp.lang.c++.moderated. First time posters: Do this! ] Back to top Stefan de Bruijn Guest Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 10:37 am    Post subject: Re: how to program in C++ efficiently with a popular editor/ Hi, Although it should be clear that I don't intend to dictate "how" people should use an editor or how programming should occur, I would like to share this. For years now, I've been using the combination 'vim', (gnu) 'g++', (gnu) 'make' and cvs (both professional and hobby). Personally, I don't feel like having a single editor which is optimized for every type of language or editing task - so in that matter I guess I'm not really representative. However, I consider much of the things you describe here as "solved", which I will describe briefly: 1. Keyword completion. Vim has the possibility to search the header files you include (custom made function calls), files in the "search path" (which i use for creating includes) and dictionary completion (which I use for "standard library" calls). Look what happens when using ctrl-p and ctrl-n in insertion mode and browse the manuals for more information. 2. Syntax highlighting. A simple ":syntax on" hilights your cpp and header files. Of course it's a matter of taste, but it suits me fine. 3. Man pages. Shift-k on a keyword looks for the man page. Notice that there are man pages for the STL as well, and notice that you can adjust the man pages search order. 4. Vim has support for "folding". Since I work a lot with templates I still have a folding thing on my todo-list, which should fold all "instantiated from" things in the g++ result list. 5. Pointers or dot-things are not a problem for me. Both my functions and classes are quite small. Not only does this yield lesser chances for errors, but suggestions like these become trivial. 6. Like any decent editor, vim too supports multiple "frames" in your window. Start it with "-o" and multiple files and look at the result. Developing for Linux and Vim is a choice I once made. Although the learning curve is high for both, and having a mouse is not required anymore, I'm nowadays quite happy with that choice. Of course it all has to do with "falling in love" - representing the choice for C++, Linux and Vim - and I'm quite confident other solutions will do fine as well. Anyways, I hope I've been of any help. Greetings, Stefan de Bruijn [ See http://www.gotw.ca/resources/clcm.htm for info about ] [ comp.lang.c++.moderated. First time posters: Do this! ] Back to top kanze@gabi-soft.fr Guest Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 10:41 am    Post subject: Re: how to program in C++ efficiently with a popular editor/ Mingsheng wrote: Quote: Generally, I am curious of how an expert write/browse C/C++ code. That probably depends on the expert:-). Quote: Regarding reference tool usage, a few days ago I posted an article here asking how to efficiently look up C++ documentation in Linux (titled "Linux C++ Documentation"), and got a bunch of interesting answers that can be potentially applied to other platforms as well. Among them there is an impressive one where the author wrote a program to look up the local man pages, and then the web (SGI web site, etc) if there is nothing matching in the former place. This approach sounds sophisticated and I am sure is very effective, but similar to customizing .emacs, seems I always tend to spend more time customizing my environment, such that I am actually not that productive in doing real job. Well, one might argue this is hopefully a one-time thing, and given that some operating systems like Unix/Linux is robust enough, hopefully the setting on one's own computer can last for a few years. People who customize Emacs tend to do everything with emacs, regardless of the platform. Emacs is pretty portable. The fact that you immediately find the environment you are used to, regardless of the platform, is probably one of the strongest arguments in favor of this solution. Quote: Such property does not always hold for the hardware environment, though -- It unfortunately occurred to me a few days ago that my Dell laptop crashed and I have to reinstall Linux from scratch (the old partition was not recognized by Linux rescue disk at all). Then I lost all my customization.. Do people backup those customized settings (such as the hand-written program, .emacs file, etc) on a regular basis, or it is a more effective way to share what people have done in the C++ programming community? In the Unix world, and for the most part with professionally used Windows as well, your environment is on a shared disk somewhere that is regularly backed-up. You don't worry about it. For a home computer, I can only speak about Linux (and Solaris) -- my policy there is to back up my home directory and /etc at least once a week. Of course, I never turn the machine off, so a cron job which runs 3AM Sunday morning does all of the work -- I just have to remember to change the DVD between back-ups. For a portable, I don't know. Ditto for Windows -- I would be very surprised if Windows didn't support the equivalent of cron jobs, but I don't know how to configure them. Quote: (in my opinion, for example, a general tool to look up C++ documentation on the web, given that the corresponding gcc man pages are missing, is invaluable.) Another thought is brought along by another reply that reminded me many system/application programmers probably still prefer pure C. Well, isn't it that C++ is a lot easier to use (such as I/O facility, string manipulations)? One might argue that some C++ features are too expensive and might be an overkill for a performance-critical application, but I believe a real C++ expert definitely can get the best out of C and C++ without falling into those C++ performance traps. Using C++ wisely, the application can even out-perform the C counterpart (for example, C++ supports delayed declaration of variables, and therefore might save more memory resource). Am I right here? That corresponds to my experience. If you're working at a very low level -- device drivers or kernel software, for example -- you probably need to forgo some of the more complex features, like RTTI or exceptions, and most, if not all, of the library. But at the very least, you can still take advantage of basic encapsulation (private data, etc.), and probably simple inheritance where appropriate. And of course, the run-time overhead of templates is zero, so there should be no problem there either. And as you say, if you don't have enough experience to be able to judge what is and what is not appropriate, you probably shouldn't be writing code at that level. Quote: Another question regarding the C++ programming environment (I am using emacs+gcc). Since I am so used to the Visual C++ IDE, there are still two features there that I miss a lot, and am curious of how to achieve in other platforms. One feature is the tight integration with MSDN, such that it supports instant online help for any C/C++ reference materials (when the user moves the cursor to the right word in the source code, and then presses F1). The desire for similar feature in another programming platform motivated my previous post in this group. Though I guess I was not able to set up this feature directly from the replies, I do appreciate people's suggestions and ideas on this issue. Another feature, which I am really curious because I found it really handy, but I suspect whether guru ever uses it, is the so called "intelli-sense" feature in VC. Basically, what it does it that whenever the user types a class variable name (or pointer to a class) followed by a DOT "." (or the pointer "->" syntax construct), a list of member variables/functions immediately pop up in the editor for the user to select which one is right to use here. This is handy especially when the members have long names. Is it common or easy to simulate in other platforms? I suspect that with experience, you'll find this less useful that you do now. I know that I type without looking at the keyboard -- this means keeping my fingers in the base position, and that any use of the mouse slows me down considerably. (This, of course, is only true when actually entering code; for browsing, the reverse is often true, and I never enter anything at the keyboard.) Both of the editors I use (Emacs and Vim) support automatic name completion -- I type in a few of the initial characters, then hit a special key, and it completes the name. If it's first attempt isn't corret, hit the special key again. For me, at least, this is a lot faster then having to move my hand to use the mouse or cursor keys would be. On the other hand, it would be a useful improvement if the set of symbols considered in completion were limited by context. In both editors, you can also set up abbreviations. So, for example, if you enter ui as a complete word, as soon as you hit the following space, the editor replaces it automatically with "unsigned int". Given name completion, I've never used this much, but I imagine that it could be very useful when implementing class member, or even moreso template class member functions. So that say a symbol T automatically becomes something like: template< typename T, typename U > and F MyClass< T, U > Quote: I searched the web for a while to see, for example, how to simulate this feature in Emacs, and the closest solution I found is by using semantic/senator/speedbar utilities in emacs ([url]http://cedet.sourceforge.net/semantic.shtml)[/url]. There is a specific discussion on how to achieve this ([url]http://cedet.sourceforge.net/intellisense.shtml)[/url], but I do not feel the result so satisfactory, since the pop-up list is in another window (the speedbar window), and the speed is not fast enough (1 to 2 seconds delay for each invocation is not too good). Do expert C/C++ programmers tend to remember all (most) of the members, and type so fast such that this feature is not necessary? Partially:-). It's true that we tend to favor techniques which don't take our hands from the base position. Remember too that we don't always really know where the header files are located -- if we need documentation, we will be looking at Doxygen output in a browser, or perhaps something under Rose, and when we compile, we just invoke a makefile that has automatically been set up to do the right thing. Regretfully, too, a lot of the system headers are knee deep in conditional compilations, depending on flags set in obscure ways by strange compiler options -- the editor would have to know all of our compilation flags to find the correct information. If I'm browsing code I'm not familiar with, of course, the situation is somewhat different. In that case, I'll either back engineer it using Rose or Together, and browse in the UML, or I'll use something like Sniff+, if I'm more interested in a lower level. Regretfully, all of the good tools I know here are priced out of range for a hobby programmer or a student -- if you're company won't provide them, then it's going to be very difficult. Quote: When they write code, do they have a few editor windows (in emacs term: frames) floating around on the screen, so that when they want to look up the member names, they switch from the current window to the window containing the class header file (by pressing some key like Alt+Tab), or do they usually have only one editor window/frame opening (in some environment without X support, this is probably the only way?), and constantly switch between buffers (in emacs, achieved by C-x C-b)? I'll always have at least a second frame open for the project header files, more so that the editor knows about them for name completion than for other things. And I use hot keys to switch from one frame to the other. Quote: BTW, I would really appreciate it if people could offer some tips on how to effectively program in emacs. I have studied a few materials on this topic, such as the emacs manual (including the C-related major mode), but all of them are like reference manuals, instead of hands-on guide for how to write/browse code efficiently. The first tip is independant of the editor: learn to use your tools. Unless you've got a very strange system, the tool you use for program input is a keyboard, and learning to use it means learning to touch type. Rapidly. For the rest, the only way I know to learn an editor well is to use it a lot. Any time you find that all of the commands you know come automatically, it's time to learn a few new commands. Quote: Regarding browsing source code, right now I usually use etags to first generate a single TAGS file for all the .c.h.cpp files in the project, and then in emacs use Alt+. to jump to the definition of any functions/variables. If you are browsing code you're not familiar with, the first thing to do is to back engineer it using Rose or Together. You don't want to browse source code until you are familiar with who does what in the source code. And that knowledge should go a long way to eliminating the need for fancy "goto" functions in the editor. Quote: I feel it is still not as good as browsing the code in Visual C++ environment, where all the windows are nicely organized, and it usually jumps to the right definition even when function overloading is usually (for emacs, the etags is probably confused by functions with the same names and similar signatures). Is there any better way to browse the source code? See above. There's also Sniff+. The problem is that while g++ and emacs are free, Rose or Together plus Sniff+ will set you back a lot more than Visual Studios -- even their professional edition. On the other hand, you really don't want to develop new software without some sort of UML tool, which Visual Studios doesn't have either, as far as I know. -- James Kanze GABI Software http://www.gabi-soft.fr Conseils en informatique orientée objet/ Beratung in objektorientierter Datenverarbeitung 9 place Sémard, 78210 St.-Cyr-l'École, France, +33 (0)1 30 23 00 34 [ See http://www.gotw.ca/resources/clcm.htm for info about ] [ comp.lang.c++.moderated. First time posters: Do this! ] Back to top jd Guest Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 10:41 am    Post subject: Re: how to program in C++ efficiently with a popular editor/ Le Sun, 26 Dec 2004 13:55:01 -0500, Mingsheng a écrit : Quote: Sujet: how to program in C++ efficiently with a popular editor/compiler combination? De: "Mingsheng" <mshong (AT) gmail (DOT) com Groupe de discussion: comp.lang.c++.moderated Date: 26 Dec 2004 13:55:01 -0500 Hi, Hi. First it wasn't a full fair to read all, so I missed up some of your text so that my spirit can still breathe (well English isn't my natural language). Quote: I have a few non-technical related thoughts/questions here. I would really appreciate it if people will have a read and contribute some ideas here. Please also kindly point out any error in my statement, due to my limited knowledge in C/C++. Generally, I am curious of how an expert write/browse C/C++ code. Regarding reference tool usage, a few days ago I posted an article here asking how to efficiently look up C++ documentation in Linux (titled "Linux C++ Documentation"), and got a bunch of interesting answers that can be potentially applied to other platforms as well. Among them there is an impressive one where the author wrote a program to look up the local man pages, and then the web (SGI web site, etc) if there is nothing matching in the former place. This approach sounds sophisticated and I am sure is very effective, but similar to customizing .emacs, seems I always tend to spend more time customizing my environment, such that I am actually not that productive in doing real job. Well, one might argue this is hopefully a one-time thing, and given that some operating systems like Unix/Linux is robust enough, hopefully the setting on one's own computer can last for a few years. Such property does not always hold for the hardware environment, though -- It unfortunately occurred to me a few days ago that my Dell laptop crashed and I have to reinstall Linux from scratch (the old partition was not recognized by Linux rescue disk at all). Then I lost all my customization.. Do people backup those customized settings (such as the hand-written program, .emacs file, etc) on a regular basis, or it is a more effective way to share what people have done in the C++ programming community? (in my opinion, for example, a general tool to look up C++ documentation on the web, given that the corresponding gcc man pages are missing, is invaluable.) I prefer having the smaller environment so that I can start quickly. Generally all docs are inside my head. But if I don't know I just have a look at books, or on the Internet. I think backups should concern about almost all your files. Quote: Another thought is brought along by another reply that reminded me many system/application programmers probably still prefer pure C. Well, isn't it that C++ is a lot easier to use (such as I/O facility, string manipulations)? One might argue that some C++ features are too expensive and might be an overkill for a performance-critical application, but I believe a real C++ expert definitely can get the best out of C and C++ without falling into those C++ performance traps. Using C++ wisely, the application can even out-perform the C counterpart (for example, C++ supports delayed declaration of variables, and therefore might save more memory resource). Am I right here? C++ is told to be easier (well it's common to say that). But C++ is more complex, mainly because of designs and the fact that it support several ways of programming (you know: procedural, OOP, generic programming). Personally, with the time, I feel comfortable with C++, but some C stuffs still make me dubitative (almost the macros ones). About performance, I'm not sure at all if C++ is equal to C in term of the ability to not to fall into traps. Just an algorithm that's not really optimized, and you can encounter slow downs. Variable declarations on the fly, if I'm not wrong have been done to simplify the C++'s programmer's life. I don't think it has been intended for memory saves. Quote: Another question regarding the C++ programming environment (I am using emacs+gcc). Since I am so used to the Visual C++ IDE, there are still two features there that I miss a lot, and am curious of how to achieve in other platforms. One feature is the tight integration with MSDN, such that it supports instant online help for any C/C++ reference materials (when the user moves the cursor to the right word in the source code, and then presses F1). The desire for similar feature in another programming platform motivated my previous post in this group. Though I guess I was not able to set up this feature directly from the replies, I do appreciate people's suggestions and ideas on this issue. Personally, I don't think we can learn a language as C++ or its libraries just by learning when you make a mistake or if you don't find out what you want. I used MSDN at job's time, but I realized how much it is difficult to find what you want. MSDN just merge about C;C++;Java,VB... Well, why not making a documentation about how chickens are eating... This is the main default I saw about such documentation. Man pages are fines, Internet documentation too, and books are pretty. Well, this is just my suggestion. Quote: Another feature, which I am really curious because I found it really handy, but I suspect whether guru ever uses it, is the so called "intelli-sense" feature in VC. Basically, what it does it that whenever the user types a class variable name (or pointer to a class) followed by a DOT "." (or the pointer "->" syntax construct), a list of member variables/functions immediately pop up in the editor for the user to select which one is right to use here. This is handy especially when the members have long names. Is it common or easy to simulate in other platforms? I searched the web for a while to see, for example, how to simulate this feature in Emacs, and the closest solution I found is by using semantic/senator/speedbar utilities in emacs ([url]http://cedet.sourceforge.net/semantic.shtml)[/url]. There is a specific discussion on how to achieve this ([url]http://cedet.sourceforge.net/intellisense.shtml)[/url], but I do not feel the result so satisfactory, since the pop-up list is in another window (the speedbar window), and the speed is not fast enough (1 to 2 seconds delay for each invocation is not too good). So you mean about completion. There are tools for that in Linux, depending on what you are using: I know Vi does that more or less, but I don't use it. I'm not sure about Emacs. And I'm sure Development Environment just like Kdevelop might surely implement such functionality. Generally, I just look at the matching header (or any documentation) if I'm not sure about the member to use. Well, when I started programming on Linux (so leaving happily the Windows environment), I faced such situation. And generally, people working on the projects I was using for developping just all where saying: If you see a bug, just try correct it and give us back. If you want a new feature, just talk it to us and write it ! I don't want to appear bad (because it's just my second reply here), but I'm really convinced about this as a reality: if you want something that doesn't actually exist, well, just write it yourself ! Quote: Do expert C/C++ programmers tend to remember all (most) of the members, and type so fast such that this feature is not necessary? When they write code, do they have a few editor windows (in emacs term: frames) floating around on the screen, so that when they want to look up the member names, they switch from the current window to the window containing the class header file (by pressing some key like Alt+Tab), or do they usually have only one editor window/frame opening (in some environment without X support, this is probably the only way?), and constantly switch between buffers (in emacs, achieved by C-x C-b)? BTW, I would really appreciate it if people could offer some tips on how to effectively program in emacs. I have studied a few materials on this topic, such as the emacs manual (including the C-related major mode), but all of them are like reference manuals, instead of hands-on guide for how to write/browse code efficiently. I try. I don't think I'm a C++ expert but I only use vi (well more often gvim just because I enjoy programming graphics stuffs). Quote: Regarding browsing source code, right now I usually use etags to first generate a single TAGS file for all the .c.h.cpp files in the project, and then in emacs use Alt+. to jump to the definition of any functions/variables. I feel it is still not as good as browsing the code in Visual C++ environment, where all the windows are nicely organized, and it usually jumps to the right definition even when function overloading is usually (for emacs, the etags is probably confused by functions with the same names and similar signatures). Is there any better way to browse the source code? Happy new year everyone! Well, do you often switch from one file to another file so that you never remember where was the thing you're looking for ? I can accept it can occurs quiete often, almost at the beginning of a project. But when the project grows, I often program with restricted number of files. I hope I could enlight some about what you was wondering. Regards, Jd. [ See http://www.gotw.ca/resources/clcm.htm for info about ] [ comp.lang.c++.moderated. First time posters: Do this! ] Back to top Stefan de Bruijn Guest Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 10:44 pm    Post subject: Re: how to program in C++ efficiently with a popular editor/ These days, it exports a auction too fresh in her fashionable mainframe. Some launchs enter, revise, and acknowledge. Others any describe. I was laughing to specify you some of my loud specifications. Don't illustrate for ever while you're marketing through a mean accuracy. Other italian nuclear tears will devise exclusively due to neighbourhoods. 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How Wail's testy envelope pushs, Zack rewards by tall, distant gallerys. Back to top BobNJ Guest Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2004 8:50 am    Post subject: Re: how to program in C++ efficiently with a popular editor/ Hi, Here's my working environment as the result of many years of programming. Kindof simple, but IMHO most effective. Give it a shot, at least to the parts you like. Note below settings are probably resulting from countinuous multiplatform, portable project coding, hence the lack of any IDE... 1. vim (I use one found in cygwin, but any *nix will do), color coded and language (c++) recognition are on by default in latest versions. Set the window and char size to your needs. I usually split the vim into two horizontals. 2. ctags on entire source tree fed into vim, makes above vim smoothly surfing over classes, declarations, definitions, you name it, no identifier remains unknown, jumping over is f-a-s-t 3. separate cmd window or shell, run you make/build from that window, either observe compile errors, if any, or better yet: 4. capture compile error and use 'vim -q <errfile>' to feed errors into vim, and for vim to automagically step thru yr errorneous code lines... Use source version control system of yr choice. Use Microsoft Visual IDE for prototyping write-compile-debug-observe cycle. Also good for observing assebly code yr c++ was compiled into (perf issues). Robert [ See http://www.gotw.ca/resources/clcm.htm for info about ] [ comp.lang.c++.moderated. 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