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Skybuck Flying
Guest
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 Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 3:41 pm Post subject: Free speech. |
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I have received a complaint from my internet service provider for posting my
idea's/opinions on this/these newsgroup(s).
I am not certain if it was a complaint from a prankster or from the
administrators of this newsgroup or one of these newsgroups.
If it was from the administrators then I have question for you:
Where can I find the policy for this newsgroup. I believe it is in violation
with the law in many countries !
Bye,
Skybuck.
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Gavin Deane
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 3:45 pm Post subject: Re: Free speech. |
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Skybuck Flying wrote:
| Quote: | I have received a complaint from my internet service provider for posting my
idea's/opinions on this/these newsgroup(s).
I am not certain if it was a complaint from a prankster or from the
administrators of this newsgroup or one of these newsgroups.
If it was from the administrators then I have question for you:
Where can I find the policy for this newsgroup. I believe it is in violation
with the law in many countries !
Bye,
Skybuck.
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Purpose of comp.lang.c++
http://www.parashift.com/c++-faq-lite/how-to-post.html
The other groups you posted to probably have FAQs with similar
information.
Gavin Deane
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Keith Thompson
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 3:47 pm Post subject: Re: Free speech. |
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"Skybuck Flying" <spam (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> writes:
| Quote: | I have received a complaint from my internet service provider for posting my
idea's/opinions on this/these newsgroup(s).
I am not certain if it was a complaint from a prankster or from the
administrators of this newsgroup or one of these newsgroups.
If it was from the administrators then I have question for you:
Where can I find the policy for this newsgroup. I believe it is in violation
with the law in many countries !
|
Which newsgroup? You've posted to three different newsgroups.
comp.lang.c doesn't have a formal charter (it predates newsgroup
charters), but there is a general consensus about what's topical. I
don't recall seeing you post anything here that would be considered
topical.
I'm not aware of any laws that require your ISP to enable you to post
whatever you like to a Usenet newsgroup. (Many ISPs don't even
provide Usenet access.) But regardless of any legal issues, simple
politeness suggests that cross-posting off-topic material is a bad
idea.
--
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) [email]kst-u (AT) mib (DOT) org[/email] <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst>
San Diego Supercomputer Center <*> <http://users.sdsc.edu/~kst>
We must do something. This is something. Therefore, we must do this.
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Victor Bazarov
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 4:01 pm Post subject: Re: Free speech. |
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Skybuck Flying wrote:
| Quote: | I have received a complaint from my internet service provider for posting my
idea's/opinions on this/these newsgroup(s).
[..] I believe it is in violation
with the law in many countries !
|
[cross-posting removed]
Usenet is not (fortunately) governed by laws of any country, they are
simply not applicable. If you think that your ISP is violating the laws
of the locality where it is incorporated, take it up with the local
government. But first ask your ISP for a copy of the "acceptable use
policy" document and see whether you adhered to it. Same with any other
mechanism you used to post off-topic to newsgroups (Google or any other
web-based Usenet interfaces). They all have policies that you promised
not to violate when you began using them. Did you keep your promise?
IOW, look in the mirror first before pointing out anybody else's ugliness.
V
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Dave (from the UK)
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 4:06 pm Post subject: Re: Free speech. |
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I could write my own. What makes that more authorative than mine?
--
Dave K
http://www.southminster-branch-line.org.uk/
Please note my email address changes periodically to avoid spam.
It is always of the form: month-year (AT) domain (DOT) Hitting reply will work
for a couple of months only. Later set it manually. The month is
always written in 3 letters (e.g. Jan, not January etc)
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Victor Bazarov
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 4:19 pm Post subject: Re: Free speech. |
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Dave (from the UK) wrote:
Public acceptance of it as such. Go ahead, write your own and we will
examine it and tell you (and everybody) whether what you wrote is more
"authorative", less "authorative", or the same.
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Gavin Deane
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 4:31 pm Post subject: Re: Free speech. |
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Dave (from the UK) wrote:
First of all, let me correct the link. I meant
http://www.parashift.com/c++-faq-lite/how-to-post.html#faq-5.9
The answer to FAQ 5.9 doesn't mention the word "purpose". I did that.
Perhaps I should have said "description" instead. Either way, if you
wrote your own but it didn't describe the nature of comp.lang.c++ as it
is today then you couldn't call yours the purpose or description of the
newsgroup. You might call it "what I think comp.lang.c++ should be
like". That would be a different thing (and would probably be of little
help to the OP in this case).
Gavin Deane
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Walter Roberson
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 4:35 pm Post subject: Re: Free speech. |
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In article <43ce60a0$0$719$5fc3050 (AT) dreader2 (DOT) news.tiscali.nl>,
Skybuck Flying <spam (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> wrote:
| Quote: | I have received a complaint from my internet service provider for posting my
idea's/opinions on this/these newsgroup(s).
Where can I find the policy for this newsgroup. I believe it is in violation
with the law in many countries !
|
Is your local newspaper -required- to print any and all articles you
submit to them? Is The Voice of America -required- to broadcast your 2
hour discussion of why Brittany Spears is the best artist, "like,
ever!"? Is CNN -required- to broadcast your home video of your dog
chasing a stick? Is your city -required- to allow you to put on a "You
can't trust {specific <ethnicity|religion|Santa Claus>}" parade?
"Free speech" means *at most* that the government cannot stop you from
expressing your views in such ways as will not cause undue disturbances
(and there are "prior restraint" exceptions in -every- country that I
have examined.)
"Free speech" does NOT mean that anyone is obliged to provide you with
a forum to express those views, particularily if doing so would cost
them money. And "Free speech" does not mean that people cannot complain
about your expression of your views, does not mean that a business
or individual cannot require you leave for having expressed those views,
and does not mean that [in serious cases] that you cannot be arrested for
having expressed those views.
In my country, "free speech" is a legal concept that applies to
"public places" -- and Usenet is NOT a "public place" (ask yourself
who owns the systems that Usenet groups travel over and get stored in.)
The closest Usenet gets to "free speech" is to say that "If one of
the Big 8 newsgroups doesn't want your opinion, then go start an alt.*
newsgroup and see if anyone bothers to carry it." And if even an alt.*
newsgroup doesn't fly then you could try for a free.* newsgroup --
I hear that the total audience for those has risen to 19 people now.
"Free speech" doesn't mean you can force anyone to -listen- to you.
If you go around trying to cite "free speech" laws as overriding
Usenet policies and customs, then you WILL lose the debate,
because those laws are *always* full of limitations.
Oh and you should examine your contract with your ISP before you go
much further: your contract with them very likely gives them the right
to drop your service for pretty much any reason they want, -including-
(and possibly specifically written into the contract) violating Usenet
norms.
--
Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? It hath
been already of old time, which was before us. -- Ecclesiastes
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Flash Gordon
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 5:12 pm Post subject: Re: Free speech. |
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Keith Thompson wrote:
| Quote: | "Skybuck Flying" <spam (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> writes:
I have received a complaint from my internet service provider for posting my
idea's/opinions on this/these newsgroup(s).
|
It's nice to know that some ISPs take at least that much notice of
complaints.
| Quote: | I am not certain if it was a complaint from a prankster or from the
administrators of this newsgroup or one of these newsgroups.
If it was from the administrators then I have question for you:
|
News groups don't have administrators. These groups don't have
moderators either.
| Quote: | Where can I find the policy for this newsgroup. I believe it is in violation
with the law in many countries !
|
Which countries have laws saying that people are not allowed to complain
to your ISP or that your ISP is not allowed to complain to you?
| Quote: | Which newsgroup? You've posted to three different newsgroups.
comp.lang.c doesn't have a formal charter (it predates newsgroup
charters), but there is a general consensus about what's topical. I
don't recall seeing you post anything here that would be considered
topical.
|
It also has a welcome message giving guidance on topicality which gets
posted every so often. Links to various topicality guidlines for
comp.lang.c can be found here
http://clc-wiki.net/wiki/Reading_And_Posting_To_comp.lang.c
Anyway, if you want to invoke freedom of speech for your write to post
here, then everyone else can invoke it for their write to complain about
you posting off topic stuff here.
| Quote: | I'm not aware of any laws that require your ISP to enable you to post
whatever you like to a Usenet newsgroup. (Many ISPs don't even
provide Usenet access.) But regardless of any legal issues, simple
politeness suggests that cross-posting off-topic material is a bad
idea.
|
Also the ISP probably has an AUP (Acceptable Usage Policy) which may
well include restrictions on posting. Since there have been complaints
posted to at least 1 of these groups about Skybuck Flying posting off
topic rubbish with ridiculous cross posting, and s/he has continued
anyway, the ISP will easily be able to see that his/her behaviour is not
considered reasonable.
The simple solution for Skybuck Flying to to post this stuff somewhere
it won't be considered off topic. Then no one would complain. So you are
free to "say" whatever you want as long as you do it in the right place.
--
Flash Gordon
Living in interesting times.
Although my email address says spam, it is real and I read it.
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Robert M. Gary
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 5:13 pm Post subject: Re: Free speech. |
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Your ISP is a private company and has every legal right to allow or
disallow anything they want. You have every right to tell them to kiss
off and get another ISP. The term "free speech" applies to U.S. gov't
regulations and limitations, not private companies.
-Robert
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Dr. David Kirkby
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 5:15 pm Post subject: Re: Free speech. |
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Victor Bazarov wrote:
Who are "we" - the International Police Force?
| Quote: | examine it and tell you (and everybody) whether what you wrote is more
"authorative", less "authorative", or the same.
|
Perhaps I would not care!
I'm not going to write any form of charter, as I have no interest at
all. But I would say that of all the newsgroups I have ever posted to or
read, the ratio of complaints/posts seen on comp.lang.c++ is higher than
on any other I know. One might expect that on *.ebay.*, or *.sex.*, but
not on this one, given the title.
I don't know what the original poster wrote, and can't be bothered to
look on Google to find out. As such, I am neither going to critisise or
condone his actions. But if there is going to a complaint made to an
ISP, my guess it that it will be very likely to come from a regular user
of comp.lang.c++. If he or she wishes to copy my post to his/her ISP,
feel free.
Dr. David Kirkby PhD.
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Dave (from the UK)
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 5:22 pm Post subject: Re: Free speech. |
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Robert M. Gary wrote:
| Quote: | Your ISP is a private company and has every legal right to allow or
disallow anything they want. You have every right to tell them to kiss
off and get another ISP. The term "free speech" applies to U.S. gov't
regulations and limitations, not private companies.
|
And the US is not the only country in the world.
--
Dave K
http://www.southminster-branch-line.org.uk/
Please note my email address changes periodically to avoid spam.
It is always of the form: month-year (AT) domain (DOT) Hitting reply will work
for a couple of months only. Later set it manually. The month is
always written in 3 letters (e.g. Jan, not January etc)
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Gavin Deane
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 5:29 pm Post subject: Re: Free speech. |
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Dr. David Kirkby wrote:
| Quote: | Victor Bazarov wrote:
Dave (from the UK) wrote:
Purpose of comp.lang.c++
http://www.parashift.com/c++-faq-lite/how-to-post.html
I could write my own. What makes that more authorative than mine?
Public acceptance of it as such. Go ahead, write your own and we will
Who are "we" - the International Police Force?
|
No. The community within the newsgroup, without whose acceptance no
suggested change to the nature of the group would succeed.
| Quote: | examine it and tell you (and everybody) whether what you wrote is more
"authorative", less "authorative", or the same.
Perhaps I would not care!
|
If you violate the terms of your contract with your ISP, perhaps you
might care.
If your actions go against widely accepted netiquette conventions and
you don't care, that might say something about you.
Otherwise, no you may not care what anyone else thought. But then why
would you have posted it?
Gavin Deane
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Mark B
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 5:32 pm Post subject: Re: Free speech. |
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"Dave (from the UK)" <see-my-signature (AT) southminster-branch-line (DOT) org.uk>
wrote in message news:43ce7965 (AT) 212 (DOT) 67.96.135...
| Quote: | And the US is not the only country in the world.
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Can you provide a citation to support this ludicrous claim?
:-)
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Victor Bazarov
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 5:35 pm Post subject: Re: Free speech. |
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Dr. David Kirkby wrote:
| Quote: | Victor Bazarov wrote:
Dave (from the UK) wrote:
Purpose of comp.lang.c++
http://www.parashift.com/c++-faq-lite/how-to-post.html
I could write my own. What makes that more authorative than mine?
Public acceptance of it as such. Go ahead, write your own and we will
Who are "we" - the International Police Force?
|
No. We are you and I, and others who read this newsgroup. Nobody
else is really interested. I know of no International Police Force
that would be interested in (or charged with) defining how c.l.c++
is maintained.
| Quote: | examine it and tell you (and everybody) whether what you wrote is more
"authorative", less "authorative", or the same.
Perhaps I would not care!
|
If you don't, why are you asking about it?
| Quote: | I'm not going to write any form of charter, as I have no interest at
all. But I would say that of all the newsgroups I have ever posted to or
read, the ratio of complaints/posts seen on comp.lang.c++ is higher than
on any other I know.
|
How about the signal/noise ratio?
And complaints from whom? From those who post about Windows programming
or about doing their homework that their posts are against what is
commonly accepted as the topic of this newsgroup?
| Quote: | One might expect that on *.ebay.*, or *.sex.*, but
not on this one, given the title.
|
I don't go to those newsgroups and hence have no idea what to expect "on
them". I'll take your word for it, though.
| Quote: | I don't know what the original poster wrote, and can't be bothered to
look on Google to find out. As such, I am neither going to critisise or
condone his actions. But if there is going to a complaint made to an
ISP, my guess it that it will be very likely to come from a regular user
of comp.lang.c++. If he or she wishes to copy my post to his/her ISP,
feel free.
Dr. David Kirkby PhD.
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I am honestly perplexed by the purpose of your post. Are you just
venting, doctor?
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