C++Talk.NET C++ language newsgroups   Archives   FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  C90 as referenced by C++98          C++Talk.NET Forum Index -> C++ language, library and standards View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message Richard Smith Guest Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 8:15 pm    Post subject: C90 as referenced by C++98 The current C++ standard has a normative reference to the C90 standard (ISO/IEC 9899:1990), and uses these to define by reference large parts of the C++ standard library. As the C90 standard has been superceded by the newer C99 standard, it is no longer possible to obtain C90 from the ISO or ANSI web stores. I've managed to locate on the web a copy of a committee draft of C90, but I'm sure that, if the C++98 standard is anything to go by, there will be changes between this and the final standard. Can anyone suggest where I might still be able to obtain an electronic copy of C90? Thanks in advance, -- Richard Smith --- [ comp.std.c++ is moderated. To submit articles, try just posting with ] [ your news-reader. If that fails, use mailto:std-c++@ncar.ucar.edu ] [ --- Please see the FAQ before posting. --- ] [ FAQ: http://www.jamesd.demon.co.uk/csc/faq.html ] Back to top Jack Klein Guest Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2004 3:27 am    Post subject: Re: C90 as referenced by C++98 On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 20:15:39 +0000 (UTC), [email]richard (AT) ex-parrot (DOT) com[/email] (Richard Smith) wrote in comp.std.c++: Quote: The current C++ standard has a normative reference to the C90 standard (ISO/IEC 9899:1990), and uses these to define by reference large parts of the C++ standard library. As the C90 standard has been superceded by the newer C99 standard, it is no longer possible to obtain C90 from the ISO or ANSI web stores. I've managed to locate on the web a copy of a committee draft of C90, but I'm sure that, if the C++98 standard is anything to go by, there will be changes between this and the final standard. Can anyone suggest where I might still be able to obtain an electronic copy of C90? Thanks in advance, Still available from the British Standards Institute: http://bsonline.techindex.co.uk/BSI2/Dir1/SitePage.asp?LS=&PgID=0080&LR=&LD=&Src=&Dest=&Last=&SessID=BLV66VLF9TKU9KN11AADMLFJKNSC5MNE&MSCSID=&ErrID=&SessStat=&Parent=&Child=&PCount=0&LogStat=&URLData=&SEARCH_ID=76DKQC306TKC9PX9ARX1SA9PJPAHDJQB&SEARCH_TYPE=SRCH_TYP_QCK Watch out for line wrap! Or http://makeashorterlink.com/?F34A45467 -- Jack Klein Home: http://JK-Technology.Com FAQs for comp.lang.c http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/C-faq/top.html comp.lang.c++ http://www.parashift.com/c++-faq-lite/ alt.comp.lang.learn.c-c++ http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~ajo/docs/FAQ-acllc.html --- [ comp.std.c++ is moderated. To submit articles, try just posting with ] [ your news-reader. If that fails, use mailto:std-c++@ncar.ucar.edu ] [ --- Please see the FAQ before posting. --- ] [ FAQ: http://www.jamesd.demon.co.uk/csc/faq.html ] Back to top James Kuyper Guest Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2004 6:16 pm    Post subject: Re: C90 as referenced by C++98 [email]richard (AT) ex-parrot (DOT) com[/email] (Richard Smith) wrote in message news:<1a0929fa.0402120503.283f1161 (AT) posting (DOT) google.com>... Quote: The current C++ standard has a normative reference to the C90 standard (ISO/IEC 9899:1990), and uses these to define by reference large parts of the C++ standard library. As the C90 standard has been superceded by the newer C99 standard, it is no longer possible to obtain C90 from the ISO or ANSI web stores. I thought you might be amused to know that, from one point of view, you don't need to worry about this. It has been argued that when C99 superseded C90, all references to C90 in other standards automagically became references to C99, even if they were very explicit about being references to the 1990 version of that standard. This makes no sense to me, but it is apparantly a consequence of taking rules that were developed for hardware standards, and mis-applying them to software. I'm not convinced it's a good idea for hardware standards, either, but I'm positive that it's complete rubbish for software standards. --- [ comp.std.c++ is moderated. To submit articles, try just posting with ] [ your news-reader. If that fails, use mailto:std-c++@ncar.ucar.edu ] [ --- Please see the FAQ before posting. --- ] [ FAQ: http://www.jamesd.demon.co.uk/csc/faq.html ] Back to top Andrew Koenig Guest Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2004 9:31 pm    Post subject: Re: C90 as referenced by C++98 Quote: I thought you might be amused to know that, from one point of view, you don't need to worry about this. It has been argued that when C99 superseded C90, all references to C90 in other standards automagically became references to C99, even if they were very explicit about being references to the 1990 version of that standard. Who has argued this way? It's not true. Although ISO standards are permitted to refer to the current versions of other ISO standards, they must do so explicitly. If a reference includes a version identification, as the C++ standard does in its reference to the C standard, then the reference is to the cited version, even if that version is superseded. --- [ comp.std.c++ is moderated. To submit articles, try just posting with ] [ your news-reader. If that fails, use mailto:std-c++@ncar.ucar.edu ] [ --- Please see the FAQ before posting. --- ] [ FAQ: http://www.jamesd.demon.co.uk/csc/faq.html ] Back to top James Kuyper Guest Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2004 6:51 pm    Post subject: Re: C90 as referenced by C++98 [email]ark (AT) acm (DOT) org[/email] ("Andrew Koenig") wrote in message news:<RR8Xb.30674$fV5.648130 (AT) bgtnsc04-news (DOT) ops.worldnet.att.net>... Quote: I thought you might be amused to know that, from one point of view, you don't need to worry about this. It has been argued that when C99 superseded C90, all references to C90 in other standards automagically became references to C99, even if they were very explicit about being references to the 1990 version of that standard. Who has argued this way? It's not true. Although ISO standards are permitted to refer to the current versions of other ISO standards, they must do so explicitly. If a reference includes a version identification, as the C++ standard does in its reference to the C standard, then the reference is to the cited version, even if that version is superseded. See <http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&frame=right&rnum=31&thl=1284208962,1284142571,1284060049,1284364991,1284342903,1284224290,1284110448,1284070909,1283818781,1283812019,1283682482,1283989633&seekm=3C2DC9C9.A4A9ECA6%40wizard.net#link36> --- [ comp.std.c++ is moderated. To submit articles, try just posting with ] [ your news-reader. If that fails, use mailto:std-c++@ncar.ucar.edu ] [ --- Please see the FAQ before posting. --- ] [ FAQ: http://www.jamesd.demon.co.uk/csc/faq.html ] Back to top Richard Smith Guest Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2004 5:30 pm    Post subject: Re: C90 as referenced by C++98 Jack Klein wrote: Quote: On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 20:15:39 +0000 (UTC), [email]richard (AT) ex-parrot (DOT) com[/email] (Richard Smith) wrote in comp.std.c++: Can anyone suggest where I might still be able to obtain an electronic copy of C90? Still available from the British Standards Institute: Thanks. I've just done this. -- Richard Smith --- [ comp.std.c++ is moderated. To submit articles, try just posting with ] [ your news-reader. If that fails, use mailto:std-c++@ncar.ucar.edu ] [ --- Please see the FAQ before posting. --- ] [ FAQ: http://www.jamesd.demon.co.uk/csc/faq.html ] Back to top Al Grant Guest Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2004 4:24 pm    Post subject: Re: C90 as referenced by C++98 [email]kuyper (AT) wizard (DOT) net[/email] (James Kuyper) wrote in message news:<8b42afac.0402161017.2e328b31 (AT) posting (DOT) google.com>... Quote: ark (AT) acm (DOT) org ("Andrew Koenig") wrote in message news:<RR8Xb.30674$fV5.648130 (AT) bgtnsc04-news (DOT) ops.worldnet.att.net>... I thought you might be amused to know that, from one point of view, you don't need to worry about this. It has been argued that when C99 superseded C90, all references to C90 in other standards automagically became references to C99, even if they were very explicit about being references to the 1990 version of that standard. Who has argued this way? It's not true. Although ISO standards are permitted to refer to the current versions of other ISO standards, they must do so explicitly. If a reference includes a version identification, as the C++ standard does in its reference to the C standard, then the reference is to the cited version, even if that version is superseded. See <http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&frame=right&rnum=31&thl=1284208962,1284142571,1284060049,1284364991,1284342903,1284224290,1284110448,1284070909,1283818781,1283812019,1283682482,1283989633&seekm=3C2DC9C9.A4A9ECA6%40wizard.net#link36 I am surprised not to see a reply from Francis on this because as far as I can see you have misunderstood the posting of his to which you refer. It says that in e.g. safety legislation, references to a standard (without explicit version) refer to the version of the standard at the time of reading, not writing. That doesn't seem to apply here. Standard C++ is free to reference C90 as a specific document just as any standard is free to reference any other specific document. 1.2 references ISO/IEC 9899:1990 and discusses the problem of validity and revisions. Moreover it describes 9899:1990 as a "standard", whereas it describes the C++ Standard as an "International Standard". Surely this is not an accident - it is awareness of the fact that the C standard referred to may cease to be an International Standard. --- [ comp.std.c++ is moderated. To submit articles, try just posting with ] [ your news-reader. If that fails, use mailto:std-c++@ncar.ucar.edu ] [ --- Please see the FAQ before posting. --- ] [ FAQ: http://www.jamesd.demon.co.uk/csc/faq.html ] Back to top Francis Glassborow Guest Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2004 5:32 pm    Post subject: Re: C90 as referenced by C++98 In article <5765b025.0402200306.5c0f0939 (AT) posting (DOT) google.com>, Al Grant <algrant (AT) myrealbox (DOT) com> writes Quote: I am surprised not to see a reply from Francis on this because as far as I can see you have misunderstood the posting of his to which you refer. It says that in e.g. safety legislation, references to a standard (without explicit version) refer to the version of the standard at the time of reading, not writing. That doesn't seem to apply here. Standard C++ is free to reference C90 as a specific document just as any standard is free to reference any other specific document. 1.2 references ISO/IEC 9899:1990 and discusses the problem of validity and revisions. Moreover it describes 9899:1990 as a "standard", whereas it describes the C++ Standard as an "International Standard". Surely this is not an accident - it is awareness of the fact that the C standard referred to may cease to be an International Standard. Well if you want a comment from me, reading the ISO Standard on standards leaves me questioning ISO's standard because there it specifies that referenced documents must be available. AFAIK the document referenced by the C++ Standard is not available from ISO at any price yet it is a breach of copyright for me to give you an electronic copy of it. The available BSI version of the amended C90 is strictly speaking, not the document referenced by the C++ Standard (even though all the normative words are the same:-) -- Francis Glassborow ACCU Author of 'You Can Do It!' see http://www.spellen.org/youcandoit For project ideas and contributions: http://www.spellen.org/youcandoit/projects --- [ comp.std.c++ is moderated. To submit articles, try just posting with ] [ your news-reader. If that fails, use mailto:std-c++@ncar.ucar.edu ] [ --- Please see the FAQ before posting. --- ] [ FAQ: http://www.jamesd.demon.co.uk/csc/faq.html ] Back to top James Kuyper Guest Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2004 2:14 am    Post subject: Re: C90 as referenced by C++98 [email]algrant (AT) myrealbox (DOT) com[/email] (Al Grant) wrote in message news:<5765b025.0402200306.5c0f0939 (AT) posting (DOT) google.com>... Quote: kuyper (AT) wizard (DOT) net (James Kuyper) wrote in message news:<8b42afac.0402161017.2e328b31 (AT) posting (DOT) google.com>... [email]ark (AT) acm (DOT) org[/email] ("Andrew Koenig") wrote in message news:<RR8Xb.30674$fV5.648130 (AT) bgtnsc04-news (DOT) ops.worldnet.att.net>... I thought you might be amused to know that, from one point of view, you don't need to worry about this. It has been argued that when C99 superseded C90, all references to C90 in other standards automagically became references to C99, even if they were very explicit about being references to the 1990 version of that standard. Who has argued this way? It's not true. Although ISO standards are permitted to refer to the current versions of other ISO standards, they must do so explicitly. If a reference includes a version identification, as the C++ standard does in its reference to the C standard, then the reference is to the cited version, even if that version is superseded. See <http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&frame=right&rnum=31&thl=1284208962,1284142571,1284060049,1284364991,1284342903,1284224290,1284110448,1284070909,1283818781,1283812019,1283682482,1283989633&seekm=3C2DC9C9.A4A9ECA6%40wizard.net#link36 I am surprised not to see a reply from Francis on this because as far as I can see you have misunderstood the posting of his to which you refer. It says that in e.g. safety legislation, references to a standard (without explicit version) refer to the version of the standard at the time of reading, not writing. That doesn't seem to apply here. Standard C++ is free to reference C90 as a specific document just as any standard is free to reference any other specific document. 1.2 references ISO/IEC 9899:1990 and discusses the problem of validity and revisions. Moreover it describes 9899:1990 as a "standard", whereas it describes the C++ Standard as an "International Standard". Surely this is not an accident - it is awareness of the fact that the C standard referred to may cease to be an International Standard. I agree that those rules shouldn't be applied here; Francis said as much himself. However, Francis and Nick both said that the ISO and BSI C committees were of the opinion that those rules did apply to this case, and that the BSI C committee, at least, were worried about how inappropriate it was that they should apply to this case. It wasn't clear from what they said whether the ISO C committee was also worried. I have no personal knowledge to back them up; I'm relying entirely upon their comments. --- [ comp.std.c++ is moderated. To submit articles, try just posting with ] [ your news-reader. 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