C++Talk.NET C++ language newsgroups   Archives   FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  c++ standard and specs          C++Talk.NET Forum Index -> C++ Language (Moderated) View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message Abhishek Pamecha Guest Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 8:12 am    Post subject: c++ standard and specs Hi, Where can I get C++ standard and specifications for __free__? Where can I find rationale/discussions behind choosing some things versus omitting some things out. I remember that such a site exists for ANSI C. Is there such a thing for C++ as well? Does C++ standard cover STL as well? I think not, but I am not sure. BTW, what is the rationale behind making us pay to read the standard? :-) thanks Abhishek Pamecha [ See http://www.gotw.ca/resources/clcm.htm for info about ] [ comp.lang.c++.moderated. First time posters: Do this! ] Back to top msalters Guest Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 1:05 pm    Post subject: Re: c++ standard and specs Abhishek Pamecha schreef: Quote: Hi, Where can I get C++ standard and specifications for __free__? A good library. Quote: Where can I find rationale/discussions behind choosing some things versus omitting some things out. For the older decisions, "the Design & Evolution of C++". For newer discussions, try searching an archive of comp.std.c++ Quote: Does C++ standard cover STL as well? I think not, but I am not sure. Well, the STL has been used for two different thing. A pre-standard library, and the parts of that library that were copied into the standard. Nowadays, most people mean the latter when they say STL. That part is by definition covered by the standard. Quote: BTW, what is the rationale behind making us pay to read the standard? Somebody has to pay for the ISO/ANSI/BSI/NEN/... organizations. Selling the products is the natural way. BTW, it's just $18 for a PDF from ANSI. HTH, Michiel Salters [ See http://www.gotw.ca/resources/clcm.htm for info about ] [ comp.lang.c++.moderated. First time posters: Do this! ] Back to top kanze@gabi-soft.fr Guest Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 1:09 pm    Post subject: Re: c++ standard and specs Abhishek Pamecha wrote: Quote: Where can I get C++ standard and specifications for __free__? You can't. Quote: Where can I find rationale/discussions behind choosing some things versus omitting some things out. There isn't such a thing. Quote: I remember that such a site exists for ANSI C. If there's a site where you can get the C standard for free, I'm not aware of it (and I suspect ISO isn't, either). The C rationale is available on-line, but there isn't any rationale for C++, so the question of its availability is moot. Quote: Is there such a thing for C++ as well? The rationale, non. A site concerned with standardization: p://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/. There's also a site from which you can download a PDF version of the standard for a modest sum. Quote: Does C++ standard cover STL as well? I think not, but I am not sure. It depends on what you mean by STL. Originally, the STL was a library developped by Stepanov. The C++ committee adopted a large portion of this library as part of the standard library (adding things like the iostreams, locale and string, but leaving out some other things). Quote: BTW, what is the rationale behind making us pay to read the standard? What is the rationale behind your having to pay for any copyrighted work? -- James Kanze GABI Software Conseils en informatique orientée objet/ Beratung in objektorientierter Datenverarbeitung 9 place Sémard, 78210 St.-Cyr-l'École, France, +33 (0)1 30 23 00 34 [ See http://www.gotw.ca/resources/clcm.htm for info about ] [ comp.lang.c++.moderated. First time posters: Do this! ] Back to top Thomas Maeder Guest Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 1:09 pm    Post subject: Re: c++ standard and specs "Abhishek Pamecha" <abhishekpamecha (AT) gmail (DOT) com> writes: Quote: Where can I get C++ standard and specifications for __free__? Nowhere I'd be aware of. Quote: Where can I find rationale/discussions behind choosing some things versus omitting some things out. I remember that such a site exists for ANSI C. Is there such a thing for C++ as well? Not that I'd be aware of. Quote: Does C++ standard cover STL as well? I think not, but I am not sure. The ISO C++ Standard covers a large Standard Library. The containers, algorithms and iterators library that used to be called "STL" is (in a somewhat modified form) a part of the C++ Standard Library. Quote: BTW, what is the rationale behind making us pay to read the standard? That there is work involved in producing it. And that the people doing some of this work should get a salary. [ See http://www.gotw.ca/resources/clcm.htm for info about ] [ comp.lang.c++.moderated. First time posters: Do this! ] Back to top Abhishek Pamecha Guest Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 9:37 am    Post subject: Re: c++ standard and specs Thanks for replies. I dont mind paying $18 for the standard. Probably, I will do so sooner than later. But things like html specs, jvm specs are free but not the C++ standard. I believe, similar amount of work goes in preparing them also. And, the more developers know about standard the less non-portable code they are going to write? Or is this a poor poor analogy? [ See http://www.gotw.ca/resources/clcm.htm for info about ] [ comp.lang.c++.moderated. First time posters: Do this! ] Back to top Martin Bonner Guest Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 9:42 am    Post subject: Re: c++ standard and specs Thomas Maeder wrote: Quote: "Abhishek Pamecha" <abhishekpamecha (AT) gmail (DOT) com> writes: BTW, what is the rationale behind making us pay to read the standard? :-) That there is work involved in producing it. And that the people doing some of this work should get a salary. Careful. The costs of the standard go towards paying for the ISO secretariat (or whichever standard organization you buy the standard from). I would argue that /most/ of the work is done by the standards committee, and far from these people receiving a salary for this work, they actually PAY to do it. I'd be a lot happier about paying for the standard if I thought that it was at least paying for the committee members expenses :-( [ See http://www.gotw.ca/resources/clcm.htm for info about ] [ comp.lang.c++.moderated. First time posters: Do this! ] Back to top kanze@gabi-soft.fr Guest Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 11:09 am    Post subject: Re: c++ standard and specs Abhishek Pamecha wrote: Quote: Thanks for replies. I dont mind paying $18 for the standard. Probably, I will do so sooner than later. But things like html specs, jvm specs are free but not the C++ standard. I believe, similar amount of work goes in preparing them also. It depends on who produces the standard, and what they expect to get from it. In the case of JVM (and Java in general), Sun decided that it is in their commercial interest that the "standard" be freely available, and since they control it, it's their decision. This is the case for a lot of non-ISO standards: if it isn't a single company, it is a consortium representing a group of companies (e.g. Open Systems for the Unix standard, the Unicode consortium, etc.). ISO is a bit special in that it is a "consortium" of national standards organisations, which formally at least don't have any commercial interests. Quote: And, the more developers know about standard the less non-portable code they are going to write? Sort of. The more developers who have access to a standard conforming compiler, the less non-portable code they are going to write. Even more important than the standard, IMHO, are products which conform to it. Quote: Or is this a poor poor analogy? It's as good as most. The issues involved are complex. I suspect that most of the people actually working on the C++ standard would not be opposed to making it freely available. But ISO has its rules, and the ISO siegle is a guarantee of independance vis-a-vis any one company. Of course, other standards, such as the Internet RFC's, are also pretty independant. And ISO does break its own rules in specific cases; there are freely available online copies of the ISO Ada standard, and I think of the ISO Common Lisp standard. -- James Kanze GABI Software Conseils en informatique orientée objet/ Beratung in objektorientierter Datenverarbeitung 9 place Sémard, 78210 St.-Cyr-l'École, France, +33 (0)1 30 23 00 34 [ See http://www.gotw.ca/resources/clcm.htm for info about ] [ comp.lang.c++.moderated. First time posters: Do this! ] Back to top David Abrahams Guest Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 11:11 pm    Post subject: Re: c++ standard and specs [email]kanze (AT) gabi-soft (DOT) fr[/email] writes: Quote: Abhishek Pamecha wrote: Thanks for replies. I dont mind paying $18 for the standard. Probably, I will do so sooner than later. But things like html specs, jvm specs are free but not the C++ standard. I believe, similar amount of work goes in preparing them also. It depends on who produces the standard, and what they expect to get from it. In the case of JVM (and Java in general), Sun decided that it is in their commercial interest that the "standard" be freely available, and since they control it, it's their decision. This is the case for a lot of non-ISO standards: if it isn't a single company, it is a consortium representing a group of companies (e.g. Open Systems for the Unix standard, the Unicode consortium, etc.). And one could make the argument, in the case of the Java and C++ standards, that you get what you pay for ;-) -- Dave Abrahams Boost Consulting www.boost-consulting.com [ See http://www.gotw.ca/resources/clcm.htm for info about ] [ comp.lang.c++.moderated. First time posters: Do this! ] Back to top Thomas Maeder Guest Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 11:12 pm    Post subject: Re: c++ standard and specs "Martin Bonner" <martinfrompi (AT) yahoo (DOT) co.uk> writes: Quote: BTW, what is the rationale behind making us pay to read the standard? :-) That there is work involved in producing it. And that the people doing some of this work should get a salary. Careful. The costs of the standard go towards paying for the ISO secretariat (or whichever standard organization you buy the standard from). Which is why I wrote "some of this work". [ See http://www.gotw.ca/resources/clcm.htm for info about ] [ comp.lang.c++.moderated. First time posters: Do this! ] Back to top kanze@gabi-soft.fr Guest Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 12:43 pm    Post subject: Re: c++ standard and specs David Abrahams wrote: Quote: kanze (AT) gabi-soft (DOT) fr writes: Abhishek Pamecha wrote: Thanks for replies. I dont mind paying $18 for the standard. Probably, I will do so sooner than later. But things like html specs, jvm specs are free but not the C++ standard. I believe, similar amount of work goes in preparing them also. It depends on who produces the standard, and what they expect to get from it. In the case of JVM (and Java in general), Sun decided that it is in their commercial interest that the "standard" be freely available, and since they control it, it's their decision. This is the case for a lot of non-ISO standards: if it isn't a single company, it is a consortium representing a group of companies (e.g. Open Systems for the Unix standard, the Unicode consortium, etc.). And one could make the argument, in the case of the Java and C++ standards, that you get what you pay for I'm not sure I'd want to go that route. First, of course, I think that in the case of the C++ standard, I get a lot more than what I pay for. But also, I wouldn't want to apply that sort of reasoning to the RFC's which define the Internet. (Note that even if you never buy or even look at a copy of the C++ standard, you benefit from it. Just by its being there.) In the end of course, the real difference is what motivates the decision process. In the case of C++ (or any ISO standard, but also most of the RFC's), the entire standards process is set up to ensure that I (as a representative of the C++ user community) get a maximum out of it. In the case of Java, the entire process is set up so that Sun (and a few of their partners) get a maximum out of it -- if I get something as well, so much the better, but that's not the principal goal. (I know you know all this, but I think it bears stating.) -- James Kanze GABI Software Conseils en informatique orientée objet/ Beratung in objektorientierter Datenverarbeitung 9 place Sémard, 78210 St.-Cyr-l'École, France, +33 (0)1 30 23 00 34 [ See http://www.gotw.ca/resources/clcm.htm for info about ] [ comp.lang.c++.moderated. First time posters: Do this! ] Back to top msalters Guest Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:44 pm    Post subject: Re: c++ standard and specs [email]kanze (AT) gabi-soft (DOT) fr[/email] schreef: Quote: I suspect that most of the people actually working on the C++ standard would not be opposed to making it freely available. But ISO has its rules, and the ISO siegle is a guarantee of independance vis-a-vis any one company. Of course, other standards, such as the Internet RFC's, are also pretty independant. And ISO does break its own rules in specific cases; there are freely available online copies of the ISO Ada standard, and I think of the ISO Common Lisp standard. So is BASIC, IIRC. At least NEN has been pushing to make any standard freely available if it's stabilised. True, selling those standards is probably more expensive then giving them away for free. ISO doesn't mind about most TR's though, even though these are valuable enough. IIRC we asked and got permission to publish the Performance TR, and the library TR1 is also on that path. Regards, Michiel Salters [ See http://www.gotw.ca/resources/clcm.htm for info about ] [ comp.lang.c++.moderated. First time posters: Do this! ] Back to top Display posts from previous: All Posts1 Day7 Days2 Weeks1 Month3 Months6 Months1 Year Oldest FirstNewest First         C++Talk.NET Forum Index -> C++ Language (Moderated) All times are GMT Page 1 of 1   Jump to: Select a forum C/C++----------------C LanguageC Language (Moderated)C++ Language (Moderated)C++ language (comp.lang.c++)C++ language, library and standards Non-English C/C++ Newsgroups----------------C++ (German)C++ (French)  You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2006 phpBB Group SEO toolkit © 2004-2006 webmedic.